Update: Rav Aaron Feldman also released a letter withdrawing support for the rally after the schedule was releases
Update: Rav Elya Brudy joins call of several leading Gedolim in America signing on Kol Korei against going to the rally in DC today.
The Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Elya Brudny said: All those that are on their way or are there, should go. They went with the right intentions and following directions of going, "im alu lo yardu" - You went to increase the numbers, not for program and have that in my mind. What changed was that the program is a bizayon to shomrei Torah and mitzvos, a bizayon to mitzvos, shabbos and tefillin - no connection whatsoever to our world. Those that went should stay and have that in mind.
A letter signed by Rav Malkiel Kotler Rav Yeruchom Olshin Rav Yitzchock Sorotzkin Rav Yaakov Horowitz Rav Elya Brudny who are part of the moetzes of Agudas yisroel, stating the broken hears we have om the current events of those who died al kiddush Hashem and hishtatfus in the tzaar. it is incumbent on bnei Torah to strengthen in Torah learning, as that is the way we respond. At the same time we hold that those who are yerei shamayim do not attend the rally that is taking place which was called by those who are not שלומי אמונה especially after the schedule has been publicized and the line up of speakers represents the opposite of of ruach Hatorah and Tznius. Therefore a ירא לדבר ה should not attend the rally and everyone should daven and learn in their place. The letter concludes with thanking the US govt for their support for our brethren in Eretz Yisrael
If the problem is who is organizing the rally why don't we organize our own? Just like the Charedim in Israel make rallies for voting, chillul Shabbos etc.
ReplyDeleteAnd who arranged the dc rally in 2002, to which R Zelig Epstein sent his yeshiva? Who arranged the pro israel rallies in the 60s and 70s which the yeshivaleit attended?
It isn't the organizers they mention, rather the roster of creatures who are speaking.
DeleteTo 630pm, if RAMK wanted to speak, it could be arranged.
DeleteHe'd have brought a few thousand participants.
Same for many (not all) Gedolim.
FYI - fun fact Yeshiva Shaar Hatorah (R' Zelig's zt"l yeshiva) was allowed to go and the bochurim there did go
DeleteHad Lakewood planned an alternate rally, which would only have had Rabbonim, people would have had an alternate, more-appropriate way to support Acheinu Bnei Yisroel.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, however, Lakewood follows a mesorah which is against Hishtaldus. This approach, with all due respect, has no mekor in halacha and in yehadus in general. Indeed, it may be a result of learning from the Catholic belief that one must only pray and believe in JC without mitzvos maasios, including the mitzvah of Pidyon Shvuyim.
The Pele Yoetz in "Hishtadlus" discuss the requirement to engage in "a lot" of Hishtadlus in both Ruchnius and Gashmius goals. He specifically mentions that one must be hishtadel to save yidden who were CAPTURED by goyim and yidden who refuse to be mishtadel to save them.
Lakewood follows no such Mesorah. It's all poppycock, made up when necessary.
DeleteHishtadlus wasn't ignored when they wanted to build something, make money, or take control over anything.
The פלא יועץ is referring to peopl who were kidnapped and then ransomed for money (which was very common in his day), that we must be mishtadel to collect money to ransom them. This isn't relevant to the situation with the hostages in Gaza. No amount of rallies or posters are going to free the hostages.
DeleteSupporting the IDF as a way of defeating Hamas or rescuing the hostages, this depends on your level of Zionism or anti Zionism. This rally will very minutely affect the day to day combat operations of the IDF. It is highly unlikely that it will diminish the recent anti Semitic flare-up.
This rally is mostly a grandstanding event to project Jewish and Zionist pride. We the yeshiva educated, understand that we have better ways to project our jewish pride
The only reason bederch hateva that Jews were let out of Russia in 70s and 80s was because of the pressure of the protests and the rallies. At that time there were Gedolim in America, and they encouraged people to participate.
DeleteHow about the olam in Lakewood cut down on the fresserei and high end gashmiyus eating 300 dollar steaks with 1000 dollar meat boards by kiddushim and adireinu high end parties maybe they should go cold turkey for a few weeks while hostages are still in gaza
ReplyDeletepeople are cutting down. ask anyone in the restaurant business and they'll tell you that business is way down. but, of course, you'd rather just complain about other people and do nothing yourself.
DeleteThose guys are the ones going to the rally.
DeleteHow about join with all Jews and not sit on the side lines. You are with us or against. If you don't want to come don't...but remain silent.
ReplyDeleteDo these rabonim give any options for hishtadlus/chizuk for the Washingon DC politicians who are under pressure from pro palestinian groups?
ReplyDeleteHow about you understand that there isn’t only one way to address things. That the Roshei Hayeshiva’s are concerned of bitul Toire deravim. How about that maybe this back fires . That maybe if the organizers are not concerned with halocho it’s not RotzonHaboire. How about we are not naive and won’t accept the non religious organizations as the ones that set the tone for kneses yisroel. How about maybe you dislike them so much they can’t even voice their opinion in a respectful way being mishtatef vtzarom shel yisroel. How about this war has nothing to do with the Secular state of Israel but everything with uprooting Kneses yisroel in EY . How about you voice your opinion in a respectful way . How about indeed
ReplyDeleteThis was never about yeshiva bochurim or kollel going and cv bitul torah. This was always about balla battim and ladies going to show chizuk and being michazek the dc politicians. What exactly do the signers have a plan on doing that?
ReplyDeleteYWN is reporting Rav Brudny signed on, which I have a hard time believing. Is it true?
ReplyDeleteWhy did rav Brudny support joining the WZO what is the difference
ReplyDeleteBecause that was done on the behest of the Gedolei Hador Rav Chaim and Rav Gershon zy"a - whether you like it or not. Daas Torah is not a popularity contest. Is Rav Avrohom Gurwitz posul by you???
DeleteAnd How about Rav Feldman who initially told Balei Batim to go (not sure what he holds now) - do you only listen to him when you like what he says?
I’m disappointed that there is no Rabbi speaking but realistically speaking when you are calling something treif like chazar what are you expecting? Weren’t we told ad nauseum since sukkos that you have no influence when you are in the opposition (so Schnall needs to run as Democrat) I don’t believe that had the Frum world attended and tried to influence who the speakers would be they would not have been successful. To paraphrase the Schnall campaign by staying home on principle we lost our chance to influence tens of thousands of secular Jews by having a rov speak
ReplyDeleteSome would say that we shouldn't have a Rav on the same roster as secular people. If that's the case, Agudah could have put up an articulate balabus (such as Jonathan Rosenblum) who could have given a speech encouraging our Tinok Shenishbu bretheren to keep mitzvos. Remember, in a time of great antisemitism, people feel more Jewish and are more willing to consider becoming frum.
DeleteI was surprised being that the OU is a sponsor of the march, and YU is attending at masse, why isn't one of their rabbanim or leaders speaking. Not r Hershel shechter or r Moshe Hauer CEO of the OU.
ReplyDeleteCome to think of it, they're doing it lishma, with no self interest or gain. Unfortunately by us if you want certain groups to attend you have to offer them a seat on the dais and a piece of the program, their rosh yeshiva or rebbe, but the YU crowd is going to help Israel with no representation in the program whatsoever.
C'mon This is what they are
Deleteexisting for
They would be forced to chap.11 if they don't attend en masse
Their gedollim are not rabbis, rather professors and others, therefore there is no point in them speaking.
Deleteanonymous do you eat OU? if so you admit to eating a kashrus only manned by professors?
DeleteR Schachter and R Willig professors? R Twersky? Do you have any clue?
DeleteR Aharon kotler TZL said in 1943- after being criticized for recruting Stephen Wise to help with the Vaad Hatzalah- that he would speak to the Pope if it would help the fingernail of one jewish child.
The present day leadership of BMG would be wise to take heed of this great tzaddik's message.
I was told by semi reliable sources that the OU conditioned their attendance on no kol isha and no conservative or reform rabbis speaking. The only religious figures who are speaking at all are not speaking in a religious context but rather in the context of the pro Israel activism they do. With that understanding they could not have had Rabbonim speaking without more frum participation.
ReplyDelete
DeleteIf so, it's being ignored from the get-go
Heard this as well.
DeleteI've seen that claim on secular Jewish sites coming from the opposite direction. (i.e. why didn't someone like Ammiel Hirsh or any other rabbis well known in not frum world speak)
DeleteWhy did this come out so late after many as already went because there was no CLEAR DASS TORAH about it till now???
ReplyDeletebecause then they can feign ignorance while technically supporting it.
DeleteThey couldn't figure it out.
ReplyDeleteThat's from someone in communication with a member
Not getting into the politics, just the nusach of the letter.
ReplyDelete"Asher lev sorim beyodoi," is incorrect, the posuk says[palgei mayim] lev melech byad hashem, see Or Hachaim, begining of Vayigash,it is only a melech, and it basically means he has no bechira, only a melech has no bechira, not sorim. Someone looked up for me & found R'Elya mann in Divrei Sicha (If I remember the name of the sefer correectly) in the name of R' Chaim Kanyevsky also claimed there is no chazal lev melochim vesrim byad hashem, it is just a melech, & quotes the above posuk (mishlei).
The mistake seems to have come from one of the selichot, which starts of with the begining of the posuk & uses poetry, palgei mayim, lev melochim vesorim, but doesn't continue byad hashem.
Although I get the message, it just amazes me, how gedolei Torah, don't scrutenize what they sign, or possibly they don't know, but i find it hard to believe the latter.
If you have a message the correct delivery wouldn't hurt. JMHO.
פַּלְגֵי מַיִם בְּיָדְךָ לֵב מְלָכִים וְשָֹרִים. הַטֵּה לִבָּם לְצֶדֶק וּמֵישָׁרִים. צְפֵה כִּי עַמְּךָ רַכִּים וּנְעָרִים. וְאֵין יְכֹלִים לִסְבֹּל פֻּרְעָנוּת וְיִסּוּרִים
DeleteThis was not a tfillah rally, it was a hishtadlut rally.
ReplyDeleteA tfillah rally can take place in NY or NJ (or the upcoming new center of Orthodox Jewish life, Florida).
If it's in Washington, it's hishtadlut, and that requires all segments of American Judaism, whether we like them or not (as long as they're still Jews.)
hishtadlus for what? hishtadlus is only hishtadlus if it has a purpose. just making a big rally is not a purpose.
Deletedo you not see the protests around the world? those loud protests then lead to heavy pressure on the state of Israel from the western democracys. Israel needs enough time to dismantle hamas so this can never happen again.
Deleteand how will a lot of people going to washington accomplish that?
Deletea pro-Israel rally in Washington of that size causes pressure from the other side to let politicians not cave to the palistinian side. I don't know why this is so hard to grasp. do you not see lately bidens statements turning to "both sides" around the time arabs have been going crazy around the word?
Delete5:49 PM did you forget about the 200 jewish hostages? are we supposed to ignore "pirates" holding jews prisoners for ransom?
Deletethis rally will not accomplish any of that. it was pointless
Delete"(as long as they're still Jews)"
ReplyDeleteThe goyim were the most impressive part of the whole rally
I'm not sure what this rally accomplished or if even the large amount of Jews were unified in any real way. At least some of the fools in DC saw that many jews have a strong interest in protection of EY and it's jews. This was a g-dless event and the schachris they davened was the bets part of the day in DC. You can argue this like any suggia in the gemmorah and come out on either side. I see it that if you asked your Rav and he said to go despite knowing or not knowing about the Kol Korei you did the right thing and you should feel good.
ReplyDeleteI think Yeshivas should stop making dinners for fundraising. it's a very goyish idea after all who needs hishtaldus. Just learn and daven after all.
ReplyDeletei see that humor is not your strongpoint. maybe leave sarcasm for the experts.
DeleteThank you! I hate dinners.
Delete11:26 PM I will ignore your attempt at deflecting. As an example why is hishtaldus necessary for getting government funds to yeshivas etc.? But then not necessary for freeing 200+ Jewish hostages?
DeleteAnd yes rally's and protests have real world effects. ask the the Rabbis March in 1943.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbis%27_march_(1943)
yesterday's rally had no point, the rabbis march had a point. bad comparison. (also that march was only for rabbis, so if you want to make the comparison that would mean that only rabbis should have gone to washington)
Deleteanyway, you still shouldn't try to use humor since you are not funny
Of course there was a point. Political pressure, as all rallies do. You punkt "hold" that political pressure won't work here. That's not a daas torah judgment call, but a geopolitical one.
Delete1:54pm I see 200 Jewish hostages are worthless to you. I imagine you didn't hold the same position back in 2013 about rallys/protests. When frum american jews went out to protest the israeli chareidi draft.
DeleteIs this a Modern Orthodox blog?
ReplyDeletemodern ? all blogs are modern.
Deletethough this is probably less modern than just about any other .
If modern is krumkeit, go try the Scoop or Alert or whatever
Orthodox? what is that?
Presumably. The Gedolim who oppose the rally also oppose this type of internet use, so who else would be here?
Deleteyes
DeleteIf just about all aguda k-nockers tweet, as they have regularly, isn't that modern?
Delete