Some Shuls who had the minhag to do it after mussaf wanted to switch the minhag to the first way as a matter of convenience. In some shuls they took a vote others asked a shailah.
There is an Interesting story brought in sefer Lev Chaim from Rav chaim falagi In the City of Izmir where the Rav wanted to change the Minhag they did Hoshanos after mussaf and he wanted to do like minhag Eretz yisrael and say the hoshanos and hakafos after hallel. They took a vote and all members agreed with the Rav to change the Minhag. there was one member of the Shul who opposed it he argued that the minhag was not just in vain and there is who to be somech on to keep it that way. The Rav decided that even if only one person opposed it was enough not to change the minhag and they kept the Minhag of hoshanas after Mussaf.
(submitted)
I was once at a ashkenaz shul and the rabbi took a vote on the first day of Sukkos in middle of davening and they switched the minhag in shul to have hoshanas said after haleil because it was a pain for some balei batim to take the lulav and esrog out again after musaf.
ReplyDeleteI was by reb yaakov kamenesky, zl in hs hul henthe urion came re chaning he minhag and do hoshanos afer halel.
ReplyDeleteReb yaakov said "its not a relgion of convienence, thats the begining of reform judaisim.
The Rav who changed the minhag was a talmid of Rav Yaakov in the Monsey days
DeleteHe may have been a talmid of Reb Yaakov, either he didn't ask or he didn't listen to Reb Yaakov.
DeleteA shul in Lakewood switched the minhag for the first day and switched back on the second day
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe says you aren't allowed to change the minhag from after mussaf to after hallel if you didn't have that minhag originally. It's in orach chaim chelek bais siman chof alef at the end of the teshuva.
ReplyDeleteOddly enough this teshuvah isn't quoted in the dirshu mishnah berurah or the piskei teshuvas when discussing when to do hoshanos. Instead they both quote a teshuva from chelek gimmel where Rav Moshe discusses a reason to say it after hallel so not to pass over the mitzvahs involving the lulav. The dirshu and piskei teshuvos are giving the impression that Rav Moshe was endorsing the minhag after hallel while failing to mention that Rav Moshe held you can't switch from one to the other!!
The shailah would be what Rav Moshe would hold by a new shul that wants to do it after hallel if they are allowed to change from the general nusach of Ashkenaz. V'tzarach iyun.
Can’t believe that your using Dirshu mishneh berurah or piskai yeshivas for Halacha lemayseh
DeleteTircha d' tzeeburah is not something u just brush away. Many isurim on shabbos which are asur to ask a Goy to do is muttar when its a tircha fir tge tzeeboor
ReplyDeleteMinhag yisroel Kodesh
DeleteThe Rishonim that almost all write to say it after Musaf, were no less worried about tircha detzibura than you.
DeleteAdditionally, this way, the Tzibur can just leave instead of saying Hoshanos. If it is after Hallel, they need to wait for Keri'as Hatorah and Musaf. Now they can just leave if Hoshanos is too much bother.
Let the guy say it after Hallel.
ReplyDeleteThere is no tircha d’tzibura when following the shulchan oruch.
It’s like changing to Havineinu instead of the regular shemonah esray because of tircha d’tzibura.
9:09
ReplyDeleteYou mean he ONCE UPON A TIME was a Talmid of Reb Yaakov Zatzal.
Now his Balleh Battim run the show as is obvious from the comment.
I think the only ones who should be permitted to vote on such a topic is those who understand why the minhag was originally instituted after mussaf. When they have learnt the Rishonim and appreciate the issue, they should then vote. The idea that this is just a small matter, up to everyone's boich, is amhaaratzus. I don't know who this Rov is, but he needs a refresher course in Torah.
ReplyDeleteTircha detzibura is absolutely irrelevant. The whole hoshanos is just a minhag, should it be abolished because of tircha detzibura?
It's a Major Major Major Mistake to Change even slightly the tradition of this & Generally any מנהג/מסורה,
ReplyDeleteBecause even though it seems to be a small unproblematic change,
But every Nitch in our Holy מסורה Has Major reasoning & סוד, Behind it.
& Changing your נוסך even minutely or slightly, for convenience or even adding אפילו שעה אחת because your feelings tell you to, or Place &/or Timing For הושענות could cause the תפילה/מצוה big problems in different ways/ and or not to go up Through the רקיע,
This Concept is partially brought down in כתבי ארי זל & is according to my Rabbis and learning.
Hmm. Kisvei Ari. Did not the Ari and Chassidim change their Nusach. I'm not judging and saying they shouldn’t have, but to say you can't change is not historically accurate.
DeleteJust out of curiosity, would you say that bentching your kids Friday night is problematic if it’s not your minhagim?
DeleteAri
DeleteAnd who wrote that he only operated with regards to
Sephard traditions
Re:Chassidim
And who wrote 'Batlah
Toras Hachassidis in our days, And no more important changes are permitted.
That is even assuming that they can be contrived as some proof ex post facto
All were talking about is about 30 seconds that it takes to get the esrog and lulav back out of the case, about the same amount of time that it takes to put on a gartel before davening. Really? You want to change a minhag for that?
ReplyDeleteI could think of a lot of minhagim that are a lot harder to keep. How about doing away with gebroks or yotzros?
Gebroktz is a far fetched chumra and I did indeed do away with it. Yotzros I wish but My shul says it so what could I do?
ReplyDeleteChange shuls so you can “DO AWAY” with it.
DeleteThe shaila is in wg where there are those that claim there is no room and not enough seats lfi the vaiter chshash that it’s takka like that is there enough room to go around by hoshanos or is it just a din in seats. If there is no room what do they do for hoshanos? Maybe only the mafia goes around? By the shul where they say there is no mafia who goes around?
ReplyDeletetell me how many of you sit for kiddush when your father and grandfather stood
ReplyDeleteThere’s only one of me as far as I know but I also stand.
ReplyDeleteThis is interesting as in my area most people don’t wear tfillen on chol hamoed. Their Minag is hashanos after hallel. In Lakewood no one follows their family minhagim rather “yeshiva” so minag has no mesorah.
ReplyDeletePeople stop wearing Tefillin on Chol Hamoed for the weakest of reasons - some years spent in EY etc., and never return. It is a crying shame that a Minhag that all of Ashkenaz kept is to be forgotten.
DeleteThe Butchatcher Rav used to promise Yeshuos to those who accepted on themselves to wear Tefillin on Chol Hamoed.
Anon 5:39
DeleteA lesser travesty than those more recent minhagim of follow Convenience &/or Follow whatever's going popular
But some Minhagim are more established than others. Tefillin Chol Hamoed, to those who wear it, is a chiyuv. Yotzros are always just a minhag
DeleteReb Yaakov Kamenetzky said that non-gebrots these days is not a chumra, as the dough is not needed well and there are white specks of flour in the dough, when it come in contact with water (even after it's been through the hot oven) it's a serious issue,
ReplyDeleteSuch Matzos should be removed from the line by the masgichim and the rav hamacshir should prohibited the sale of any such matzos.
DeleteI find it very difficult to believe what is quoted as purportedly stated by Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky. The Matzos are under hashgacha of reputable rabbanum macshirim. So they are all feeding chametz to the oilam????
DeleteExcellent article on the subject
ReplyDeletehttps://hakirah.org/vol29Oppenheimer.pdf
Great article - everyone here should read it before writing their amarutzus. One example - he shows that tircha d’tzibura is in fact a concern here that some poskim took into account
DeleteThere is no mesorah today except perhaps by the chassidim. Oberland has disappeared. Minhad Ashkenaz is struggling. we have become artscroll yidden and i do not mean that lshevach. If it is in the instructions in artscroll then it's toras moshe msinai. The Yeshiva system disparages minhag avoseinu it's their way or the highway.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to misunderstand the concept of Minhagim. Chassidim are the last to have 'minhagim'. There is no concept of minhag avoseiu there, everyone must keep the minhagim of the Rebbe's father, and even then, often as not it isn't true. How many Rebbes found out suddenly that they have to light a fire on Lag Ba'omer? Forty years ago, none of their fathers did this. When a Yid from Oberland came to Satmar, did he stop wearing Tefillin on Chol Hamoed? Eating in the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres? Chassidim do not keep up Minhagim at all. They do various things and call them Minhagim, but changing their names doesn't change their essence.
DeleteTo paraphrase a very distinguished man: prior to the Holocaust every Hamlet had their own tradition and minhagim. For which we should deeply mourn
DeletePart of the Divine Gezeira of WW2 was that we stop living in hamlets in Poland. The world became smaller, there is no turning back the clock.
DeleteStop being a לן בבית הקברות
It so happens to be that the person Zatzal”l who wrote Artscroll instructions was a huge uncontested talmid chacham.
DeleteOne can 100% relay on those pesakim (from the original version).
Ok mr cohen will do. Thank you for helping us be mekayem simchas yt with your nonsensical comments.
ReplyDeleteGive a couple more years.
DeleteYou should in the interim be gebentched
Mr. Cohen, thank for being a voice of reason. Keep it up!
ReplyDeleteI davened in Lutzk and Hoshanos is said after Hallel. Was very surprised... anyone have an explanation for this?
ReplyDeleteLutzk has no minhagim they do whatever is convenient and not al pi halacha
Deleteand follow the easy telzer minhagim too
It's a unique place not a average shul to bring any proof from
So much for a real Litvishe shul… I was hoping to find one but I guess Lutzk won’t be it…
DeleteIn Europe, many Shuls do so. It seems that was often the pshara between the Mispalelei Nusach Sfard and the majority.
DeleteThe Lutzker Rav zz"g, is a son in law in Europe
Europe of older they would have chased you out beaten up if you tried to tamper with their tradition
DeleteEurope of now has little connection to the real place
Well, Gateshead Kehilla does Hoshanos after Hallel. It was a pshara between the Chassidim who came to town and the original founders.
DeleteMore proof.
DeleteThat's explains how come they tried to limit Chassidim to 7%
They kind of tried.At least.
R'Dovid Dryan & co would have never tolerated a change like this
Gateshead limited Chassidim to 7%?! What are you talking about? Do you know who the founders of the Kehilla were?
DeleteR Moshe told r Moshe d tenler Shul monsey they can change
ReplyDeleteIs there any credible source for this?
DeleteR Moshe told r Moshe d tenders Shul that they could switch order
ReplyDelete
Deletemaybe.Though he held nusach sefard was a mistake change
yadam Al ha'tacht'ona
Soon they’ll say r didn’t go there for yom tov That’s what I heard there as a kid
ReplyDeleteWith great respect to all opinions - I could care less. Like everything today, there’s too much emotion expended on these things, and then the insults start. I was fortunate to be in the RMDT shul on Sukkos when Reb Moshe zt’l would come - we would go there on Chol HaMoed just to to daaven with him. So I will share a story that RMDT told about one such Chol HaMoed. He said that R’ Yaakov zt’l came to see his old friend R’ Moshe in the sukkah. They spoke for about two hours - sichas chulin shel Talmudie Chachomim - and then R ‘ Yakov went home. R’ Moshe waited about 20 minutes, and then told his son in law RMDT “itzter darf’n mir gayin bazuchen by R’ Yakov”. They went to R’ Yakov, spent a little time in his Sukkah, and returned home. That’s called Yiddishkeit.
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly is 'called' Yiddishkeit'?
Delete1. Believing stories that MDT said?
2. Visiting for no more and no less than 20 minutes?
3. Talking Yiddish?
4. Spending a little time in the Sukkah?
5. Returning home?
Ah. The insults. Thank you.
Delete