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Tuesday, March 11, 2025
Hashkafa: Shidduch Remedy
The crushing might of the Rabbinate levied on helpless girls to remedy the shidduch crisis
R' Gershon has nailed it לעניות דעתי. This running to learn in EY needs to stop. Learning kodshim is a waste of time for most, going to the non kodshim yeshivos is a bigger joke for most. As it's the one solution to the shidduch crisis
We could solve two problems in one by not allowing the girls to go to EY for seminary either. Let them work towards a degree while attending seminary classes in the US. When the couple marries and if it can work out they will go to EY for a 6 mo./1 year where they both can learn before a raising a family and real work obligations hit them.
The rabbis & askanim never really cared to fix the crisis, because it could only happen through overhaul of the whole community system & ethos.But it's the same system have been satisfying for them.So they make perennially enough noise to assuage their guilt eg They'll get good shidduchim for their daughters without those girls going to select seminaries at all.If they cared so much give those spots to girls who it would've made a difference on their resumes.
Furthermlre, as stated by myself & R' RF almost a couple decades ago there never was a shidduch crisis.There was an unhealthy aspiration crisis.It was never realistic for vast majority of girls to be coached to aspire the same narrow minority cadre of guys.But the source came from a healthy, pure place.Nowadays most girls coming of age have, however unfortunate but necessarily, given up on those aspirations.Hence there won't be much shidduch crisis for the next generation
You are wrong. The entire shidduch crisis start and ends with numbers due to the age gap. Just look around you're own cousins, neices, neighbors, how many girls are available and how many boys Anyone denying it or trying to blame other made up issues is (willfully) fooling themselves
Why is an adult man begging a bochur to be a nachshon? He should go to gvirim and demand that they provide FINANCIAL incentives to bochurim who get married young.
If the age gap theory is just a theory, and the true issue is that we have an expectation crisis that both young men and woman have unrealistic expectations then NOTHING will be solved by social engineering and tinkering with our schooling process.
Listen to the question “we are a few Bochurim from high level yeshivas…. Stop right there. The whole system is broken, rotten to the core. It is all about status. Absolutely everyone should be proud of there Avodas Hashem. It is not gaavah to feel good about your accomplishments it is very important for growth. However this attitude that I made it, I am a Bochur in THIS yeshiva etc is the root of the problem. Need I say more?
Turn that around. Hasn't been for the elite for more than a few generations. That [non-]elite who once they had benefitted massively from that previous broadly popular system, are now in midst of the process of turning it back into a system primarily for the neo [faux] elite
it is assur to question to Daas Torah, as is known from Chazal if they say black is white and white is black it is kefira mamosh to question them. We must defer to Daas Torah.
10:30 -- Rav Chaim would not have talked to you extensively, cause if you learn in BMG (and are not chassidic) means you don't have a beard. Rav Chaim considered it completely assur to shave, any form of shaving. SR's minhagim you don't follow, I'm sure the LR too.
What Reb Gerson is saying can be tweaked a bit. Why not stay in the American yeshiva he starts off in all the way until the chuppa? Why the obligatory need to go to Lakewood by shiduch time?
While it doesn't need to be BMG per se, it is very good at being a good transition yeshiva for dating, something that the yeshiva gedolos aren't really equipped to handle en masse.
Very scary thing to push off girls Shidduchim, potential for a huge drop in ruchniyus as they are not in school framework. Also with Shidduchim off the table girls will be partying and having fun going to Cancun and Costa Rica etc… they have time, money, cars. a post sem girl is ready for marriage this gap year is a very non Jewish concept and a slippery slope to our marriage focused(rightly so) society. Boys can and should start dating younger but should not be tied in with pushing off the girls.
You’d be surprised ! They feel like they work hard, they have the money so they take vacations and Florida gets old very quickly. I personally know very good girls ( not greasy yeshivish but very solid, no smart phones etc.. ) who have gone to Mexico , Puerto Rico. And furthermore not every girl is top tier there is a huge mid range which is exactly the point! ( same way there is a big range of boys ranging from won’t leave the Bais Midrash to going to Yankee games and skiing on off shabbosim). We don’t worry so much about the girls at the very top. Anyone who has grown daughters or works with girls will tell you these are the facts on the ground.
There are plenty of solid working boys who would be a great shidduch for frum girls who are a bit more out there. Right now, these boys are having a much harder time in shidduchim because, on paper, every girl is looking for a “top long-term learner.” But soon after the chasuna, many of these same girls want to fly off to Mexico or Florida, and before you know it, their so-called “top boy” is being pulled out of learning.
A fringe benefit of this takana is that it will give everyone the time to settle into who they really are, making for more tzugepast shidduchim. At the end of the day, the positive effects of this decision will probably be far greater than what was originally intended.
obviously there is a major chesoron in their chinuch if they NEED to go to some pritzus place in order to get rejuvenated. I could understand the wish to the American Dream mall once a year but thats it for a girl. Hasidim marry off their girls young so they are nichshol in these things. People forget girls also have tayvos and are ruined when they are single too long.
Anon 9:44 - your point is not true. A working boy who actually works and keeps a mentchliche seder hayom does not have a hard time in shiduchim. It's just not true that everyone wants a learning boy.
But they don't want a boy who is 'between jobs', or is working in hard money lending etc., and does not live a mentchliche life.
Not sure if it’s a chisaron in the chinuch or we live in a time where it is hard to stay insular.everyone says it’s easier to be a good girl, but I work in a girls schools in todays day and age it’s not so easy anymore… And yes the problem is exactly that there is too much unstructured time girls going to a mall once a year doesn’t cut it. Also to clarify these girls are not doing inappropriate things on their vacations … they are good Bais Yaakov girls… but it’s just the culture of going ….and delaying a year is a risky thing because more years out of school = more distance from the ruchniyus base that school provided.. Even if a girl doesn’t get a date the first year home but “being in Shidduchim” keeps them in a certain frame of mind, when that is not an option-it will be a year to party and have fun, nothing good can come of it….Though I’m sure the rabbonim have taken all this into consideration.
We will look back in 30 years and see chv a tremendous Yerida in girls who have become more worldly and modern due to getting married later. Somebody will have to give a din vecheshbon
R' Gershon has nailed it לעניות דעתי.
ReplyDeleteThis running to learn in EY needs to stop. Learning kodshim is a waste of time for most, going to the non kodshim yeshivos is a bigger joke for most.
As it's the one solution to the shidduch crisis
Yes, but so is running to BMG.
DeleteHowever, the non-Kodshim Yeshivos could be a better choice, if more solid bochurim went there. Right now, that's not really an option.
We could solve two problems in one by not allowing the girls to go to EY for seminary either. Let them work towards a degree while attending seminary classes in the US. When the couple marries and if it can work out they will go to EY for a 6 mo./1 year where they both can learn before a raising a family and real work obligations hit them.
DeleteThe rabbis & askanim never really cared to fix the crisis, because it could only happen through overhaul of the whole community system & ethos.But it's the same system have been satisfying for them.So they make perennially enough noise to assuage their guilt eg They'll get good shidduchim for their daughters without those girls going to select seminaries at all.If they cared so much give those spots to girls who it would've made a difference on their resumes.
ReplyDeleteFurthermlre, as stated by myself & R' RF almost a couple decades ago there never was a shidduch crisis.There was an unhealthy aspiration crisis.It was never realistic for vast majority of girls to be coached to aspire the same narrow minority cadre of guys.But the source came from a healthy, pure place.Nowadays most girls coming of age have, however unfortunate but necessarily, given up on those aspirations.Hence there won't be much shidduch crisis for the next generation
You are wrong.
DeleteThe entire shidduch crisis start and ends with numbers due to the age gap.
Just look around you're own cousins, neices, neighbors, how many girls are available and how many boys
Anyone denying it or trying to blame other made up issues is (willfully) fooling themselves
Ridiculous! Numbers do not marry each other. People, boys and girls from various backgrounds marry each other.
DeleteAlso the Bais Yaakovs that tell the girls to only marry bochurim that are really not for them. That makes the girls reject proposals by shadchanim.
DeleteWhy is an adult man begging a bochur to be a nachshon? He should go to gvirim and demand that they provide FINANCIAL incentives to bochurim who get married young.
ReplyDeleteעפרא לפומיה של Cohen
ReplyDeleteAnything constructive or just empty boich in response to his sagacity?
DeleteIf the age gap theory is just a theory, and the true issue is that we have an expectation crisis that both young men and woman have unrealistic expectations then NOTHING will be solved by social engineering and tinkering with our schooling process.
ReplyDeleteListen to the question “we are a few Bochurim from high level yeshivas….
ReplyDeleteStop right there. The whole system is broken, rotten to the core. It is all about status. Absolutely everyone should be proud of there Avodas Hashem. It is not gaavah to feel good about your accomplishments it is very important for growth. However this attitude that I made it, I am a Bochur in THIS yeshiva etc is the root of the problem. Need I say more?
There’s a good shiur about fitting into a box on halacha headlines if I remember Correctly rabbi brietowitz speaks about this point.
DeleteThe yeshiva system used to be meant for the elite. CV I’m not suggesting changes that’s above my pay grade just sharing a thought provoking shiur.
Turn that around.
DeleteHasn't been for the elite for more than a few generations.
That [non-]elite who once they had benefitted massively from that previous broadly popular system, are now in midst of the process of turning it back into a system primarily for the neo [faux] elite
it is assur to question to Daas Torah, as is known from Chazal if they say black is white and white is black it is kefira mamosh to question them. We must defer to Daas Torah.
ReplyDeletetroll your own sites
DeleteThe only question is . . . how do you choose which brand of Daas Torah to follow?
DeleteDo you follow Rav Chaim Kanievsky?
The Satmar Rebbe?
The Lubavitcher Rebbe?
The one you were arbitrarily born into?
Fair Q. Have long been bothered by that.
DeleteEssentially choosing your preferred type of answer. Might as well make your own decision
10:30 -- Rav Chaim would not have talked to you extensively, cause if you learn in BMG (and are not chassidic) means you don't have a beard. Rav Chaim considered it completely assur to shave, any form of shaving.
DeleteSR's minhagim you don't follow, I'm sure the LR too.
What Reb Gerson is saying can be tweaked a bit. Why not stay in the American yeshiva he starts off in all the way until the chuppa? Why the obligatory need to go to Lakewood by shiduch time?
ReplyDeleteWhile it doesn't need to be BMG per se, it is very good at being a good transition yeshiva for dating, something that the yeshiva gedolos aren't really equipped to handle en masse.
Delete7:37 -- cause if you don't go to Israel to learn, you're a piece of garbage, that shadchanim aren't intended in helping.
DeleteWhen Roshey Yeshiva will stop brainwashing bochurim to marry for money, the self made so called crises will end
ReplyDeleteWhich ones do that?
DeleteI never met one.
Not officially,but very much smiled upon
DeleteVery scary thing to push off girls Shidduchim, potential for a huge drop in ruchniyus as they are not in school framework. Also with Shidduchim off the table girls will be partying and having fun going to Cancun and Costa Rica etc… they have time, money, cars. a post sem girl is ready for marriage this gap year is a very non Jewish concept and a slippery slope to our marriage focused(rightly so) society. Boys can and should start dating younger but should not be tied in with pushing off the girls.
ReplyDeletehow many good girls from Lakewood go to Costa Rica, this is a narishkeit hevel havolim
DeleteYou’d be surprised ! They feel like they work hard, they have the money so they take vacations and Florida gets old very quickly. I personally know very good girls ( not greasy yeshivish but very solid, no smart phones etc.. ) who have gone to Mexico , Puerto Rico. And furthermore not every girl is top tier there is a huge mid range which is exactly the point! ( same way there is a big range of boys ranging from won’t leave the Bais Midrash to going to Yankee games and skiing on off shabbosim). We don’t worry so much about the girls at the very top. Anyone who has grown daughters or works with girls will tell you these are the facts on the ground.
DeleteThere are plenty of solid working boys who would be a great shidduch for frum girls who are a bit more out there. Right now, these boys are having a much harder time in shidduchim because, on paper, every girl is looking for a “top long-term learner.” But soon after the chasuna, many of these same girls want to fly off to Mexico or Florida, and before you know it, their so-called “top boy” is being pulled out of learning.
DeleteA fringe benefit of this takana is that it will give everyone the time to settle into who they really are, making for more tzugepast shidduchim. At the end of the day, the positive effects of this decision will probably be far greater than what was originally intended.
obviously there is a major chesoron in their chinuch if they NEED to go to some pritzus place in order to get rejuvenated. I could understand the wish to the American Dream mall once a year but thats it for a girl. Hasidim marry off their girls young so they are nichshol in these things. People forget girls also have tayvos and are ruined when they are single too long.
Deletelol so if someone goes to Costa Rica they’re not longer a good girl??
DeleteWe throw labels on people for the silliest reasons.
Anon 9:44 - your point is not true. A working boy who actually works and keeps a mentchliche seder hayom does not have a hard time in shiduchim. It's just not true that everyone wants a learning boy.
DeleteBut they don't want a boy who is 'between jobs', or is working in hard money lending etc., and does not live a mentchliche life.
8:38 -- maybe the bochurim (and the shadchanim) should go to Cancun to scout out available girls.
DeleteJust like families think they have to go to expensive pesach programs to show off their daughters, and to show off they have money and can afford it.
DeleteNot sure if it’s a chisaron in the chinuch or we live in a time where it is hard to stay insular.everyone says it’s easier to be a good girl, but I work in a girls schools in todays day and age it’s not so easy anymore… And yes the problem is exactly that there is too much unstructured time girls going to a mall once a year doesn’t cut it. Also to clarify these girls are not doing inappropriate things on their vacations … they are good Bais Yaakov girls… but it’s just the culture of going ….and delaying a year is a risky thing because more years out of school = more distance from the ruchniyus base that school provided.. Even if a girl doesn’t get a date the first year home but “being in Shidduchim” keeps them in a certain frame of mind, when that is not an option-it will be a year to party and have fun, nothing good can come of it….Though I’m sure the rabbonim have taken all this into consideration.
ReplyDeleteA:It's the former
DeleteWe will look back in 30 years and see chv a tremendous Yerida in girls who have become more worldly and modern due to getting married later. Somebody will have to give a din vecheshbon
ReplyDeleteSo educate them better.
DeleteThey're getting married later anyway.This helps them deal with it
DeleteForget about the girls, today's amung BMG bochurim can be found those with skinny pants, there top 2 buttons open, combed up huge chups
ReplyDelete