Hashkafa Q&A: Rav Gershon Ribner follows up with last week's episode on the shidduchim.
Sequel: Is there anyone else holding on to the keys of liberation from the shidduch crisis
Sequel: How to ensure the solution would not be undermined
Sequel: Roshei Yeshiva who fear jeopardizing their relationship with Brisk
Sequel: Is the Rabbinical Establishment suffering along with the common folk
He held strong till the end when he vacillated and said he's not sure it's even the correct approach. If he's not sure himself then he shouldn't be going after R AY
ReplyDeleteWhy is it r’ AY more than all the American rosh yeshivas? The bochurim would listen to their rebbeim more than r AY shlita.
ReplyDeleteAnd why are we accusing r ay of not knowing what’s going on? He more than likely does.
Why are we talking as if we have no opinion when your opinion seems pretty clear... ?
I can tell that you both previous anonymous aren't lamdanim. To the first one, he was never blaming r ay. He's saying that if anyone can do it it's him, but he himself isn't 100% sure it's he right approach. It would seem that that's the solution, but he feels he needs someone bigger than him to make the call. It's r ay's call. To the second one: He feels and I agree, that you can't change the American system until all the big names in america will agree and that's not happening. The only place where it's one person's call is brisk. However I do agree with you that I believe r ribner is making a mistake. If r ribner knows the extent of the problem, so do all thre other big ry. Their talmidim are also talking to them, and a lot of people tried telling this to r ay. Including the leaders of these shiduch crisis organizations.
ReplyDeleteI must say though that it's very possible r ay believes it's not his problem. Its an american problem, and if the gedolim of america can't solve it, that's their problem, not his. He doesn't have to change the way the american system works. If he would there would be a lot more changes, like no more secular studies.
Or because it's unpc to publicly hold that guilty party responsible
DeleteA problem afflicting a large number of Bnos Yisrael and yet it's "not his problem." Spoken like a true lamdan.
DeleteYisroel, better not to be a lamdan (by your standards at least) than to be a krummeh lamdan
DeleteRav Gershon Ribner should open a Yeshiva where bochurim go to Rav AY at 19. Plenty of ballebatim would support such an institution.
ReplyDeleteAFAIK, R' AY doesn't accept 19 yr olds.
DeleteIncorrect. He explicitly said that if the American Roshei Yeshiva would send at younger ages, he'd happily take at younger ages.
DeleteIndeed, English bochurim go to Brisk at 19 and so do heimishe American bochurim (the Yeshiva of Rav Ephraim Wachsman sends at 19).
None of the rosh yeshivas will do anything until there will be a few girls commiting suicide and a mass exudas off the derech then they may be willing look outside their little bubble and realize the severity of this issue
ReplyDeleteIf that happens ch"v, the blame will be passed onto the victims.
DeleteUnfortunately, that will do nothing to encourage change
DeleteThe only thing that will solve the problem is for balei batim to fund the opening of new Yeshivas which enable bochurim to start younger. As of yet, none of the wealthy balei batim seem interested enough to do so.
realize the severity of this issue"
DeleteWell put! Only enough however, as usual,to pretend they how much they really really care.Which would mainly be to avoid being held so noticeably responsible (eg kick the can to others) but ch"v possibly lose their place on the community totem pole
In the last piece he seems to be very clear what the extent of the problem is, the cause of the problem and he calles it a holocaust but hes still not sure if something needs to be done about it???? What religion is this? Isnt rachmonim one of the basics of who we are as a people??
ReplyDeleteHe didn't say he's "not sure if something needs to be done" he said he's not sure if that's what needs to be done.
DeleteIn fact he very much lifted Feb a.y. & said many times he's an Adam gasoline etc & he knows what he's doing
Here is the takeaway.
ReplyDelete1. The 'system' is above all. The 'system' must be good, everything in it must be protected, it is the only way to produce Talmidei Chachamim, and its production must be Talmidei Chachamim because its the only way to produce them. The leaders of the 'system' are the only ones whose opinion counts, and everything they do is leshem shamayim, even when they tell you they aren't.
2. Reb Avraham Yehoshua is a major player in the 'system', so his position must be protected. The 'yungeleit', as he refers derogatorily to those who opened Yeshivos after years of learning behasmadah, years that RAYS did not invest, are minor players in the 'system', so they can be kicked around and blamed for things.
3. Any solution that does not protect the 'system' is wrong. By dint of not protecting the 'system'.
4. BMG cannot be blamed for anything, ever. See 1. above.
Of course, those who have learned at the feet of real Rebbeim know that none of this is true, the 'system' is a product of the lowest common denominator, and is not to be trusted at all, even as we cannot change it yet. RAYS had time to spout his ?!@#$ about the פשוטו של מקרא, yet the girls getting old is not his problem?!
Couldn't have described it better.In a proverbial nutshell.With exception perhaps of the last irrelevant sentence.
DeleteYisroel thinks you're not a lamdan
DeleteLet him.As if he is a connoisseur
DeleteWhy is he taking 2 sides of the coin? To keep saying how great r ay is sounds like a way to play it safe. Don’t say you trust him so many times, but then keep saying you don’t indirectly and how it’s his huge pending decision to make now. If you qualify to say you doubt him the way he holds now, then also say your opinion straight out. Don’t dance around it.
ReplyDeleteWhy don’t you write him a letter if you feel like this? If you can’t do that then why is it so important to express this?
PS - I heard from a senior rosh yeshiva who was at that meeting that not one person felt the boys should get married younger, besides the novominsker rebbe.
(If the American rosh yeshivas hold their students should go learn after Bais Medrash, it won’t help if r ay doesn’t accept. They’d learn elsewhere.)
Rav Shmuel Barenbaum was at the meeting he ended it saying that bochurim should continue learning in yeshiva for a number of years that was the end of the meeting.
ReplyDeleteI have a lot of respect for r Gershon but he is missing the boat in a big way.
ReplyDeleteThe freezer needs to end immediately. The blood of thousands of innocent girls and their unborn children is at steak!!! Rav elya ber wachtfogel said that he feels this צרה is greater than all other צרות facing klal yisroel combined!!!
yeah cause about a month of dating loss is going to solve the issue
DeleteAnd of course the only reason for the entire shidduch crisis is the age gap......this a given......that too is a coolade sold by the "system" so no one will blame the system for any of its obvious deficiencies contributing to the crisis.
ReplyDeleteA big reason for shidduch problems he seems to be ignoring (and pinning on age issues only) is what the girls are taught in various schools. Not everyone can be a long term shteiger. There are plenty of excellent options without the long term. Broaden your horizons. There is a lot more out there than brisk, wannabe brisk, etc. The fact that he views the whole world as belonging to that style seems telling indeed.
ReplyDeleteWhoever lectures to girls, in seminary etc about kollel, rather than focusing on Torah living has blood on their hands. Let the girl decide whatever is for her as far as long term, short term, working goes. Focus on frumkeit and Yirah. Leave the rest to the individual.
This seems to be a big part of the problem. But it seems some don't want to go there. Why? Perhaps because if they admit to this, then that kind of makes them insecure. They want their way to be pushed even if it causes damage. Rather let girls suffer than to urge anyone to change the message. Could this be? After all, he admits that some RY dont really care enough and asid leiten as hadin. So we can say the same thing here.
The message must be this: Focus ONLY on Torah living and yiras shamayim. If one girl waits until she cant have children anymore because of what she was told in seminary, then there will be gehenim. The next world is a scary place indeed.
This has been a pet peeve of Sonei Torah for years, long before any crisis.
DeleteThe truth is, after all the drashos in schools, working boys have an easier time in shiduchim, all things being equal. And the boys aren't staying in learning that long any more. The wives are sending them to work, after all of the drashos, withing five years of marriage.
Sonei shmonei...focus on the issues. The working boys have an easier time you say. Thats nice. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? We are discussing the girls not the boys or which boys have it easier.
DeleteNext. The boys are not staying in learning as long anymore you say? You are discussing issues after marriage. What does that have to do with what they are told to look for before marriage?
Every point you made is irrelevant, and a deflection, and telling.
I guess we need to explain it better.
DeleteWorking boys find shiduchim easily. Girls that were taught to look for learning boys still focus on their own wellbeing over the 'shitah'. So it is not causing any problems at all.
But those that hate Torah and its learners, hide behind other complaints, like the army, government benefits, bein hazmanim, and the shiduch crisis. Girls being taught to respect Torah is a good thing. Girls not finding shiduchim, because of the age gap, is a bad thing. One has nothing to do with the other.
You seem to have comprehension issues.
Delete1) Working boys find shiduchim easily. Therefore? Nobody said there aren't plenty of girls looking for such boys. The issue is the number of girls looking specifically for learning boys compared to the lesser amount of learning boys to go around. It's really not that complicated to grasp.
2) The girls still focus on their wellbeing so its no problem at all, you say. What exactly that means I don't know, but clearly it is a problem. Many are taught about what to look for, no? If the tune changed it can help. Seems reasonable. The point is that teaching girls about marrying long term can mean girls never finding their match. Its basic seichel. Give drashos about frumkeit and Torah living and Yiras Shamayim. Let them decide - and only them - about the details, such as long vs short term learning.
3) Lets jump to all the Jew haters! Israeli issues. Bein hazmanim? You seem to be pretty insecure honestly.
Excellent point.but you missed the deeper problem, its a shallow message which sounds beautiful "Torah mitoch Hadchak" taught by a rich woman (who else can afford to teach nowadays) dressed to the nines, leased car,manicured lawn, children all in matching outfits What a farce! To a young mind this message is Very lofty But she can't grasp it. She does not see it in action. And then she gets married and it gets real and she's totally unprepared for it. Rather if she would have been taught at a level she can understand You might be better prepared for real life.(and sonei torah refers to those who question the system since system=torah)
ReplyDeleteThe system doesn't come in here.
DeleteComplaining about girls being taught to be machshiv Torah is anti-Torah.
The system is the סוס טמא that people ride. Nothing to do with Torah.
No one is complaining about teaching them to respect Torah rather talking above their heads but they can't comprehend what they're hearing and utilize it in their personal lives.
Delete