Rabbi Lieff called for a review board for the psychologist and mental health professionals to discuss and make sure they are doing the right thing.
Rabbi Grama said over from the gedolim both in Eretz Yisrael and the US on the topic of alienation see 2nd video below.
Reb Yonnason Shwartz who is very involved with shidduchim spoke to the point.
Remember you would want to do shidduchim for your children nobody wants kids that were alienated or torn apart many have RL gone off the derech. The sinah of me getting what I want by alienating from the other parent no body wants them and they are harmed for life the biggest divorce rate are from these kids just stop. Stop.
It is proven again and again it is the frum therapists that are the problem here.
ReplyDeleteChildren on their own will not have the strengths to go against the Teva and break away from family. It is the so called frum therapists that facilitate these alienations. Rachmana litzlan there rabonim and Askanim that feed this evil. Neviei Habaal.
You're doing a terrible disservice when you equate young children who are used as weapons of war in a divorce fight with adult children who cut their parents out when they aren't willing to stop causing fights.
DeleteThere's a huge difference.
The evil is the same the crime is the same, the cruelly is the same, the damage and destruction is the same, the איסור is the same. The onesh is the same.
DeleteThe young child and the adult child are lacking the proper daas each on their own way. They seek guidence from a therapists or a ROV aka daas Torah who assists the child to disconnect from their parents'.
The adult child is as guilty as the therapist the מסית ומדיח
And this trend will continue as long as we don’t OWN UP as parents (those who CAN). The damage done by credentialed therapists is a SYMPTOM & NOT a cause! Before this devastating trend can be halted, an awareness of the ROOT CAUSES must become accepted and common place. There is NO lack of authentic information as to the ROOT CAUSES of the alienation that happens AFTER parents had the early & golden opportunity to lay down a STRONG foundation of healthy secure attachment but DID NOT (yes, if we knew better, we’d have done better, but we still must acknowledge this truth in order to heal in the present). Surely life is a journey of transforming our traumas & ourselves to spiritual growth & connection to our Source, but the minimal emotional maturity & knowledge that is INDISPENSABLE in bringing children into the world has NOT been considered in our yeshiva system or in the spiritually unconscious lifestyles that is perpetuating dysfunction, dis-ease, divorce, alienation, & overall discontent in too many broken families, whether the families remain intact or divorced.
DeleteWhen people decide to OWN UP, Hashem sends the perfect resources to LEARN & gain practical knowledge to emPOWER us to heal & elevate our lives enjoying peace, joy, & holy love. Hashem does NOT want any of His precious children to suffer!!! I know how things can feel dark & hopeless…if you WANT out of that self-made prison - find a chavrusah or chevra to work through 42 days of the 2 booklets entitled “the Secret to Miraculous Salvations”. If you want transformative guidance as parents- check out ChanaRus. com. There are MANY wonderful teachers on line for FREE to help us create the realities we desire. Dr Joe Dispenza’s work is particularly miraculously effective & easily understood. We want sooo much to change others…but we KNOW it won’t work - it really is MUCH easier to work on changing yourself by becoming the person you would want to be lovingly connected to. THAT is GEULAH!
The articles in the Yated 2 weeks ago was a sad attempt by the therapists to shift blame and take no responsibility each one claiming the same childish Talking points. We don't tell them what to do we only coach them and empower bla bla bla..these are adults with degrees who poison the mind of children yet when the heat is on they deny and run with their tails between their legs. Cowards
ReplyDeleteSome times it's a husband that alienates his wife from her family because he doesn't like them for some immature reason. The wives aren't happy because they don't have a choice. Maybe there are kids involved and they are scared of divorce. The husband is usually VERY controlling. I have seen this more than once. Only with proper help can there be reconnection again. Otherwise, the wife is miserable and her parents, siblings and family are devastated.
ReplyDeleteWomen are equally as responsible and controlling.
DeleteGenerally both mothers and fathers suffer from estrangement and alienation however during a divorce where the kids are usually with the mother the children are usually alienated from the father.
DeleteIn all cases it is an outsider that brought about the alienation. IE a family member or a therapist.
Wow, someone should get them a therapist
ReplyDeleteAt the Asifa someone relayed an incident that a therapist concluded that for her health and wellbeing the wife must disconnect herself from her mother in law.
ReplyDeleteFurther more the therapist made a recommendation that the husband must ailiniate his parents. It came to a point that the wife told her husband "it's either me or your parents". The mother and her son were devastated. We both love each other and we want to have a relationship alas, your Sholom bayis is interfering.
The controlling therapist feels so good and accomplished.
השם ירחם
Yes I am married to women, a really lovely person who for many years was married to 2 people myself and her mother ( a divorcee single mom with many many issues) my wife also has not spoken to her biological father for 40 years do to her mothers brainwashing etc. I spoke to many rabbonim about this situation and My wife and I were told Unequivocally you must pull back and put real boundaries However we never cut off ties with mom, who by the way is still trying to control her daughter . and complains to me when her daughter "flexes her independence" by not listening to orders etc so so sad
DeleteIt's interesting how these רעבנים and רשעסקנים who think they are Immune but הפוסל במומו פוסל. If it is not yet מומו it can come back as מומו
ReplyDeleteThis topic is not a black or white discussion, it's impossible to write in a comment the amount of abuse ppl get from controlling parents, and many times there is no other option but to break off.
ReplyDeleteAnon 931 Abuse is a very broad word. There are ways to deal with controlling people. Thats where therapy, coaching and family counselling can help. Cutting off and Alienation is not the Solution and should not be allowed.
DeleteJust about every single person alive has been abused in some kind of another (except for those born on top who have spent their whole life abusing others)
ReplyDeleteYes it is difficult.
Everybody.
Some people make excuses.
Some people want to use the excuses for their desired agenda.
Some people want others to give them excuses.
Some people turn the potential for excuses by contrast into something shtarker
eg according to research abused youth can make better soldiers in the armed forces
Next we ought move on to sibling alienation,other kinds of advised alienation
ReplyDeleteThe emphasis on parental alienation should be only a start
Your family uber alles whatever happens around used to be a frum thing
Many parents think that they own their kids and will control them at whatever age. And when that kid is married it will affect the harmony in the house
ReplyDeleteI hear. So bring the parents into therapy with the adult child to effectively communicate the issues. There is no disconnect heter for the amount of families that the mageifa called alienation has affected. Deal with the issues and don't run away from them.
DeleteAn adult should not be bringing their adult parents into therapy. The very adult parents can choose to seek out their own therapy, if they feel like it.
DeleteHowever, the adult child can set some very clear boundaries. They can make it clear that they will not be able to listen to רכילות when the parent involves themselves into causing trouble with their child's marriage. It doesn't mean to cut off contact. It means to set clear boundaries and learn how to let stupid comments not have any effect.
The latter sentence is the main important part.
DeleteThat is what it's about.
Which has gornisht connection with boundaries
Don't complain about it if you cannot spell alienation properly.
ReplyDeleteMr perfect (Anon 1009)
DeleteIs this a spelling challenge?
This is such a stupid conversation.
ReplyDeleteEveryone will agree that in some extreme cases this step is not only allowed but necessary. And everyone agrees that in most cases its not necessary or allowed.
Lets leave it up to the professionals and Rabbanim involved with each individual case to make the decision. And yes, they will get it wrong sometimes because mistakes are inevitable.
Everyone involved with such a heartbreaking situation must have a Rav and a therapist guiding them. Now before you jump just remember that a very common result of abuse is the fact that it inevitably gets repeated to the next generation in some form or another.
Can't we all agree on that?
SO MASKIM!!!
Deletethis discussion is like arguing about cutting people open. most of the time not a great idea but sometimes necessary.
Simple, no?
Hashem should guard us from these so called rabbanim/professionals!
DeleteOne would think we could, but as you can see, some of the commenters here will never agree to any form of cutting ties no matter who advises it or what the reasons behind the decision are.
DeleteOf course, it's a terrible thing to have to do and should never be anything other than a last resort and only in the most extreme cases, but that won't stop these folks from claiming that it's never okay. For those people, reason is not a factor.
DeleteIt's hardly Simple.It about breaking a therapist construction of the community
Proclaiming something as Daas Torah doesn't make it so.
ReplyDeleteWhile Rabbi Lieff shlit"a, and Rabbi Grama shlit"a are fine and wonderful people and talmidei chachomim, I don't think even they would consider themselves worthy of expressing "daas Torah" of the sort that makes the rest of us sit up and listen and unequivocally obey. Nor do most other people think of them that way. Pretending otherwise is a manipulation tactic common among people who don't know boundaries and who are abusive in their relationships.
Hmmmm, maybe that's why those pushing this agenda use this tactic...
As I shared in a previous thread on the subject, no less than Harav Mattisyahu shlit"a specifically advised two people that I know well to break off all ties with their parents - permanently. I'll take his Daas Torah any day over the speakers at this event.
You are attempting to misconstrue what they said
DeleteThe daas torah is from the gedolei hador across the spectrum who they recently met in Israel and the USA
Manipulation tactic? Projection much?
Delete1) Of the thousands of recordings of Rav Matisyahu, please find one where he promotes cutting off ties with parents. Oh, please find one where he advises to simply entrust 'professionals'. He doesn't. He says the opposite.
2) Trying to attack the messenger is indeed a Manipulation tactic - which you are using. Respectfully challenge a specific point of either Rabbi Gramma or Rav Lief. And back it up.
You're unable to do so, so you seek to attack them.
3) You're precisely the type of therapist that needs to be exposed and needs to stay far away from our families.
r' mattisyahu definitely advised some people to cut off ties from parents. he also definitely advised some people to go to therapists. i personally know of a few cases.
DeleteYou're cute, but I'll try anyhow.
Delete1) Of the thousands of recordings of Rav Matisyahu, please find one where he promotes cutting off ties with parents. Oh, please find one where he advises to simply entrust 'professionals'. He doesn't. He says the opposite.
Huh? You want a recording where he says something that I never claimed he did? Seriously? All I said is that I know of two cases where he himself instructed people to cut off all ties with their parents. That was after dozens of conversations with him. Not the kind of thing he'd say in a shmuess.
2) Trying to attack the messenger is indeed a Manipulation tactic - which you are using. Respectfully challenge a specific point of either Rabbi Gramma or Rav Lief. And back it up.
The messenger here is neither Rabbi's Lief or Gramma. They're welcome to their opinions and no one attacked them. The only point I made is that they're not acclaimed "Daas Torah" and those who try to pretend that they are and therefore all are bound to listen are pushing a false agenda. That's it.
3) You're precisely the type of therapist that needs to be exposed and needs to stay far away from our families.
I'm not a therapist and never thought of myself as one, but I'm humbled by the compliment. I am, however, a בן תורה who knows the world of בני תורה and knows what DAAS TORAH is and isn't.
If you want to argue with me, that's perfectly fine, but try to stick to the topic and my points, not some hallucinations floating around your brain.
Who decided that Rabbi Lieff is any less of a Talmid Chacham than Reb Matisyahu? He was a wonderful Mashgiach in the Yeshiva, but Talmidei Chachamim are not measurable by success in a certain shteller.
Deletewhy are the Gedolim not leading the fight?
ReplyDeleteNo true scotsman
DeletePrecisely. A rav, a halachah teacher, and a toy store owner, do not make very formidable army.
DeleteMaybe have an event educating parents how to be respectful of their children
ReplyDeleteEnumerating all the pessukim in the Torah that command that.
DeleteThis is a litvish site, in the cHasidic world, Schwartz is busy pushing older singles to get married against their parents wishes, you could use your imagination what happens in these cases between father/mother and son/daughter
ReplyDeleteFunny, when Shulchan Aruch says a person does not need to listen to parents, people are all up in arms. Yet, when it comes to alienation, which no Halacha permits, it is acceptable.
Deleteאת אשר אסרת התרתי ואת אשר התרת אסרתי.
agree true chinuch is by example not by ordering and demands. its all got to be about relationships not rules demands orders controll
ReplyDeleteSo set an example show your children & nephews how to keep family together even when there are issues & they copy
DeleteAlthough kibbud av vaem is not about conducting your life according to your parents dictations, there is still no heter of Alienation, which is an outright violation of Kibbud!
ReplyDeleteIncorrect.
DeleteThere is an issur in the Torah to kill a person, but it's murder to do so to save one's life.
One must honor and fear his parents, but in the event that they tell him to do an aveirah, he must not listen to them.
Clearly, there are times when this obligation is overriden.
Now let's move to a situation where there's clear and present abuse of a dangerous nature committed by a parent - only an ignoramus would argue that he should worry about honoring him. No - he must do whatever it takes to save himself from harm at all costs even if it means breaking ties. That's a last resort, but it's an option when all else fails.
If you want to have any credibility on this issue, you need to stop pretending that there are no cases where it can be done. Otherwise, it's impossible to take you Broken Ties people seriously.
: ”כל המבזה אביו או אמו אפילו בדברים ואפילו ברמיזה הרי זה ארור מפי הגבורה, שנאמר: 'ארור מקלה אביו ואמו ואמר כל העם אמן
ReplyDeleteלשון הרמב"ם
So who ever believes in alienating parents be careful.
The עונש of המצער אביו ואמו is קיצור ימים ושנים
So think twice before you comment in support of hurting one's parents.
And guess what studies show that ailination is generational children will ailiniate you if you ailiniate your parents.