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Sunday, August 13, 2023
Does Disdain from the Secular Public constitute a Chillul Hashem
Hashkafa with Reb Gershon Ribner shlita
Does disdain and scorn from the secular public constitute a Chillul Hashem
While something may technically not be a Chillul Hashem, doing something that the secular public looks at disdainfully can not possibly be thought of something Chazal approved of. Look how many issurim they were mattir due to aivah.
The Satmar Rebbe was known to have opposed the behavior of those who kept Yosselle Schumacher (he was never kidnapped. He had been staying by his grandfather beforehand)
The sefer chasidim takes a different approach. He writes that anything the goyim have outlawed that may be ok l'halacha, if a jew does it, then it's a chilul hashem. The Rambam holds that only if you are oiver one of the 3 chamuros instead of accepting death, then it is a chilul hashem. So there are obviously extremes in halacha regarding this.
You are incorrect in your quote of the Rambam. ANY aveira where arson pretends as if he's not being seen by Hashem is a Chilul Hashem. Even in the greatest privacy
Ish halacha: הרוצה לשקר ירחיק עדותו. Where is the Rambam you're quoting?
In Halacha there are many examples of Chillul Hashem because what the goyim say. Cite two examples. Clearly. If there are many, as you claim, citing two should be easy.
You need to look no further than Yechezkel , the Haftarah of parshas Parah. Definitely chilul Hashem in front of non jews. וַיָּבוֹא אֶל הַגּוֹיִם אֲשֶׁר בָּאוּ שָׁם וַיְחַלְּלוּ אֶת שֵׁם קָדְשִׁי בֶּאֱמֹר לָהֶם עַם ה' אֵלֶּה וּמֵאַרְצוֹ יָצָאוּ.
Right some also said it was assur for 10 people to stand on their porch during Covid due to aivah. They retracted after everyone realized how funny that was.
Reb Shlomo Lorincz tried convincing those involved to give back Yossele Schumacher because he felt the cost of keeping himto the rest of the Frum world is not worth it. It’s very unlikely he made such efforts without asking Gedoley Torah first. No Gadol B’Torah has ever advocated anyone kidnapping the children of their OTD children to give them a Torah Chinuch. (Schumacher was never kidnapped). Gertner’s son has repeatedly stated in newspaper interviews that the Satmar Rebbe was upset at his father for agreeing to be the one to host Schumacher.
Why are they mutually exclusive? The non-religious parties made a Chilul Hashem by shmadding Yidden, and those that helped the Yossele story made a Chilul Hashem by fighting the natural order of a child living with his parents and removing a child from his natural habitat.
As a technicality Schumacher wasn't removed from his parents. His parents had sent him to live with his grandfather. The issue was that his father was a communist who wanted to go back to the Soviet Union and take him along. According to Schmacher himself in his most recent interview had the issue been his parents wanting him back on their far left kibbutz his grandfather would have fought that he should receive some Torah education but the whole "eifoh yosselle" story probably never would have happened. Reb Nochum Shtarkes himself made that claim by his trial. He also argued that since the parents had given him custody that responsibility in itself required him to prevent the child from being sent back to Soviet Union. Even if the parents themselves were ones bringing him,
We have a Gemara שיהא שם שמים מתאהב על ידך. We need to live a lifestyle that has people loving Hashem due to our actions. Eidelkeit, not pushing through gedarim, keeping in mind other people, and trying to take their feelings into account.
When people start saying, 'Chillul Hashem doesn't mean they should like us', they are often far'entfering simple grubkeit.
There is a famous story of a Rebbe who traveled to Germany in the early 1900's. On shabbos he left the house with a shtreimel. The host came running that in this town we don't wear a shtreimel in public because it's a chilul hashem. When they went to shul, there was a bris. They honored the town priest with being sandek, and the host proudly proclaimed, "see that's a kiddush hashem". To which the rebbe proclaimed, if that's a kidush hashem I understand why wearing a shtreimel is a chilul hashem.
Unfortunately, many in Lakewood are making the same kidush hashem and accusing others of the same chilul hashem.
Just imagine the response of some of "Daas Torah" here had Yaakov Avinu asked if he should send his children on the long dangerous trip to buy unneeded food in Mitzrayim only so that Asav and Yismoel shouldn't feel jealous that "they" have food and we don't. (Taanis 10B) Yaakov didn't take any food from them; he didn’t get it through preferential treatment or even by outbidding them on the open market. What possible legitimate complaints could they have had even from a non-Jewish perspective? Why did he make the effort?
What about attacking neighbors in wg, is that a chilul hashem?
ReplyDeleteNo, it is a chilul Hashem to be a moser and halacha is very strong about calling out mesirah
DeleteWhile something may technically not be a Chillul Hashem, doing something that the secular public looks at disdainfully can not possibly be thought of something Chazal approved of. Look how many issurim they were mattir due to aivah.
ReplyDeleteThe Satmar Rebbe was known to have opposed the behavior of those who kept Yosselle Schumacher (he was never kidnapped. He had been staying by his grandfather beforehand)
Proof, buddy? You are incorrect.
DeleteYou're also incorrect about the Satmer Rebbe
Daas bal habayis hepech das torah.
DeleteThe sefer chasidim takes a different approach. He writes that anything the goyim have outlawed that may be ok l'halacha, if a jew does it, then it's a chilul hashem. The Rambam holds that only if you are oiver one of the 3 chamuros instead of accepting death, then it is a chilul hashem. So there are obviously extremes in halacha regarding this.
DeleteMr AB,
DeleteYou are incorrect in your quote of the Rambam. ANY aveira where arson pretends as if he's not being seen by Hashem is a Chilul Hashem. Even in the greatest privacy
ab read the Rambam again. The Rambam mentions 3 types Chillul Hashem. In Halacha there are many examples of Chillul Hashem because what the goyim say.
DeleteIsh halacha: הרוצה לשקר ירחיק עדותו. Where is the Rambam you're quoting?
DeleteIn Halacha there are many examples of Chillul Hashem because what the goyim say. Cite two examples. Clearly. If there are many, as you claim, citing two should be easy.
You need to look no further than Yechezkel , the Haftarah of parshas Parah. Definitely chilul Hashem in front of non jews.
Deleteוַיָּבוֹא אֶל הַגּוֹיִם אֲשֶׁר בָּאוּ שָׁם וַיְחַלְּלוּ אֶת שֵׁם קָדְשִׁי בֶּאֱמֹר לָהֶם עַם ה' אֵלֶּה וּמֵאַרְצוֹ יָצָאוּ.
וָאֶחְמֹל עַל שֵׁם קָדְשִׁי אֲשֶׁר חִלְּלוּהוּ בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל בַּגּוֹיִם אֲשֶׁר בָּאוּ שָׁמָּה.
לָכֵן אֱמֹר לְבֵית יִשְׂרָאֵל כֹּה אָמַר ה' אלוקים לֹא לְמַעַנְכֶם אֲנִי עֹשֶׂה בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל כִּי אִם לְשֵׁם קָדְשִׁי אֲשֶׁר חִלַּלְתֶּם בַּגּוֹיִם אֲשֶׁר בָּאתֶם שָׁם.
Right some also said it was assur for 10 people to stand on their porch during Covid due to aivah. They retracted after everyone realized how funny that was.
ReplyDeleteSo what are you trying to say? Aivah doesn't exist because you don't agree with how some applied it?
DeleteAnonymousAugust 14, 2023 at 5:53 AM That you for your comment. It really sheds a lot of light on this topic...
ReplyDeleteReb Shlomo Lorincz tried convincing those involved to give back Yossele Schumacher because he felt the cost of keeping himto the rest of the Frum world is not worth it. It’s very unlikely he made such efforts without asking Gedoley Torah first. No Gadol B’Torah has ever advocated anyone kidnapping the children of their OTD children to give them a Torah Chinuch. (Schumacher was never kidnapped). Gertner’s son has repeatedly stated in newspaper interviews that the Satmar Rebbe was upset at his father for agreeing to be the one to host Schumacher.
ReplyDeleteWhy are they mutually exclusive?
ReplyDeleteThe non-religious parties made a Chilul Hashem by shmadding Yidden, and those that helped the Yossele story made a Chilul Hashem by fighting the natural order of a child living with his parents and removing a child from his natural habitat.
As a technicality Schumacher wasn't removed from his parents. His parents had sent him to live with his grandfather. The issue was that his father was a communist who wanted to go back to the Soviet Union and take him along. According to Schmacher himself in his most recent interview had the issue been his parents wanting him back on their far left kibbutz his grandfather would have fought that he should receive some Torah education but the whole "eifoh yosselle" story probably never would have happened. Reb Nochum Shtarkes himself made that claim by his trial. He also argued that since the parents had given him custody that responsibility in itself required him to prevent the child from being sent back to Soviet Union. Even if the parents themselves were ones bringing him,
DeleteOne of the malachim once told me that Satmar rov remarked efsher malachim Uber menchin zenenin zay zecher nisht
ReplyDeleteWe have a Gemara שיהא שם שמים מתאהב על ידך. We need to live a lifestyle that has people loving Hashem due to our actions. Eidelkeit, not pushing through gedarim, keeping in mind other people, and trying to take their feelings into account.
ReplyDeleteWhen people start saying, 'Chillul Hashem doesn't mean they should like us', they are often far'entfering simple grubkeit.
And some people confuse the natural tendency of a goy to hate us, with us causing that hate via "aiva" or "chilul hashem".
DeleteThere is a famous story of a Rebbe who traveled to Germany in the early 1900's. On shabbos he left the house with a shtreimel. The host came running that in this town we don't wear a shtreimel in public because it's a chilul hashem. When they went to shul, there was a bris. They honored the town priest with being sandek, and the host proudly proclaimed, "see that's a kiddush hashem". To which the rebbe proclaimed, if that's a kidush hashem I understand why wearing a shtreimel is a chilul hashem.
DeleteUnfortunately, many in Lakewood are making the same kidush hashem and accusing others of the same chilul hashem.
Silly asinine comparisons
DeleteSina of Eisav DOESN'T mean inherently hate
Take some responsibility what your crowd brings on the rest of us
Vnekiim me'elokim v'hadam
The original poster hit on the target
Astute & profound
DeleteJust imagine the response of some of "Daas Torah" here had Yaakov Avinu asked if he should send his children on the long dangerous trip to buy unneeded food in Mitzrayim only so that Asav and Yismoel shouldn't feel jealous that "they" have food and we don't. (Taanis 10B) Yaakov didn't take any food from them; he didn’t get it through preferential treatment or even by outbidding them on the open market. What possible legitimate complaints could they have had even from a non-Jewish perspective? Why did he make the effort?
ReplyDeleteThey ran out of meat boards and cowboy steaks. Can't let the Cohen's or the Edomim see that
Delete