BrokenTies.org presents a support gathering for affected families, in Parsippany New Jersey.
Are you a parent or grandparent alienated or estranged from a child or grandchild?
Are any of your friends or relatives suffering with alienated children or grandchildren?
Wish you can help but you don’t know how?
Come this Motzei Shabbos January 7th to a question-and-answer session with a world-renowned expert in parental alienation and family estrangement Dr Joshua Coleman PHD. You will hear from Dr. Coleman directly the facts and science about child alienation. What have changed in the last half a century that brought about such behavior. 
Get a better understanding how to better support these families in this painful journey.
Call (518) 941-6316 to Register or go Here There is no charge to attend.
The program is from 8 to 10.
This event is for PARENTS, GRANDPARENTS or ANYONE supporting those who are alienated from a child or grandchild.
Transportation available from Brooklyn, Monsey, and Lakewood.
Anyone who is involved in alienating a child be it a Rav askan therapist social worker or any authority should be alienated from the community. It is tantamount to making living yesomim
ReplyDeleteWell said. I would like to add a zug the Brisker Rav zya once said: “It is possible that someone can learn day and night yet child will grow up robbing shops”. He made a point by saying that although a person can be learning his entire life, if his motive is for kavod and the likes, his son will then follow in his ways. He will interpret his father’s learning as a vehicle for kavod and self-worth so he will even go steal openly to attain that status. What do we see from here? There is a person who learns…. And then there is a person called a Talmid Chacham. A person can learn all day yet still be a nobody who wants everything for himself.
DeleteThis can be applied here too. There are Rabbonim and there are Rabbonim… We are dealing with a situation where so-called Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva (I can name a few) are literally stealing children from their parents’ arms. They are robbing them and their families of their life instead of properly guiding them to help. A Rav that can so easily instruct a young married couple to alienate themselves from their parents (and sometimes family) without hearing both sides (Which is always the case), is committing an act of evil and cares solely about his own honor and reputation. Clearly, he isn’t trying to help anyone but himself. He feels good and accomplished that “he’s made it” and people actually consult with him on personal issues. A true Rav with Achrayis doesn’t do things like this!
People must wake up and realize that this is a massive issue and it’s happening at the top. People’s lives are being destroyed forever.
Anybody heard that Rav Nosson Adler instructed the Chasam Sofer as a bochur to cut off ties with his parents? I don't know that it is true. Just remember hearing something. I wonder if there is anything brought in a reliable source
DeleteRashi brings two pshatim why Avrohom Avinu cut off ties with Terach.
DeleteEither because he was a ger and he was no longer related or because he was an oved avodah zara and reshim bechayehm kruyin maisim
Here we go again.
Deletethese therapists and rabonim will do anything for honor and control. They would claim to once have heard a story about the Godol hador instructing his prize talmid the Rabon shel yisroel the holy Cassam Sofer. They would fall so low that will compare these malachai elyon to some Shaygetz who facilitates destruction of families.
did they see all or any of the shur chassam Sofer in Yore Dea in the sensitive halachos in kibud av vaim.
But if they once overheard bochurim some shmuezing in their mesivta years in how to rebel they will remember it and wickedly act upon it decades later.
The story about r' nosson adler convincing the chasam sofer to leave his father is mentioned in chut hameshulash and as far as I know is considered to be authentic.
DeleteHow about parents who alienate their children because they don’t “agree” to their lifestyle or marriage choices? Any support groups for that???
ReplyDeleteקריינא דאגרתא איהו ליהו פרוונקא
DeleteKeep in mind that when alienating parents, most of the time it comes along with alienating the single children still living at home with the parents. How sad is that for them as well?
DeleteIt's these " Doctors" that caused this problem in in the first place
ReplyDeleteIt is these doctors that perform abortions
DeleteIt is these doctors that practice according to global warming
It is these doctors that study evolution
it is these doctors that perform autopsies
It is these doctors that created the anthrax delivery
it is these doctors that caused the Covid 19 virus in the first place
It is these Doctors that made money off the Killer vaccine
It is these doctors that worked with Dr Mengele in the holocaust
it is these Doctors that tear families apart and yet Askonim, Rabonim, Roshei Yereshiva help carry out these Churbonons because the "doctor" said.
So, Rabbis use doctors and therapists, and therapists have faith in Rabbis and visa versa. A bunch of clueless murderers with prestigious titles each one is hiding behind the other one.
yes all the patients here agree with you. go join them!
DeleteBellevue Hospital-Psychiatry
462 1st Ave., New York, NY 10016
Not necessarily doctors. Ot was humans.
DeleteDeath to humans. Long live dolphins!
Lakewood though should alienate the owners of Mosdos in our town who abuse the parent body with total disrespect, threatening to throw out their kids if they get behind on tuition, insist on raising the tuition, etc etc
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely correct. All the mosdos are really awful. It is absolutely not the responsibility of parents to worry about the raises teachers are demanding or general increase in expenses. Its totally the responsibility of the Mosad and if parents pay that's nice and if they don't ,the Mosad has the achrayus to come up with the shortfall
DeleteHow about the nasty abusive parents?
ReplyDeleteGuess what? Your children will have "nasty abusive parents" in return.
DeleteThe Torah says כבד את אביך ואת אמך, not כבד את בנך.
DeleteOf course, nasty parents are nasty people and they should change themselves. But the Mitzvah is still there.
Going to leave this here for you to read https://drsorotzkin.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/eng-honoring-abusive-parents.pdf
DeleteSorotzkin is discussing a father who molested a child and suchlike.
DeleteI don't think that is the matter of discussion over here.
Struggling to understand how you saw this in Dr Sorotzkin's writing . Maybe you are assuming the word abuse has only one connotation?
DeleteHe is quite specifically mentions physical and emotional abuse a number of times.....
DeleteAbuse is a very abused word
DeleteSee note 1 page 2 where he specifically discusses his definition. Now you are just playing word games. The point is that the obligation of kibbud av in this situation is not as clear cut as you would like to believe. I have seen numerous rabbonim pasken this way halacha lemaisa. If you want to see where they are coming from it would behoove you to just read the whole piece. Feel free to disagree if it makes you feel better but that does not make it objective halacha that everyone else has to follow.
DeleteSorotzkin isn't a Rav. The Pesakim of Rabbanim that he quotes at the end are discussing molesters, not 'nasty parents'.
DeleteYou didn't read the article. Here are a couple of examples: In his responsa, Rabbi Zilberstein stated that one may speak disparagingly regarding a parent in order to prevent him from sinning. I asked him if one could extend this reasoning to a situation where a parent is reprimanding a child in an abusive manner. Rabbi Zilberstein concurred.
DeleteAlso read the addendum in the beginning of page 2 where R' Dovid Cohen specifically does not limit his opinion to molestation.
It seems that people here aren't particularly interested in learning the sugya and actually understand what kibbud av actually requires according to poskim.....
The Mechaber of Achas Sha'alti did a wonderful job occupying children's minds with tchekave sha'alos. Let's leave it at that
DeleteAha so now its ok to be mevaze talemedei chachomim when we don't like their opinions. Would love to see what sefer that was written in.
DeleteWhat about the children that have to deal with narcissistic and condescending parents. Is that ok just because they are the parents. If a parent is suffering from either mental Illness why are they able to have a hold over the child?
ReplyDeleteFor the last five thousand years children dealt with all types of narcissistic and condescending parents and yet they lived through it with respect. They were able to juggle their challenges in harmony, move on and lead their own life. Until our generation was born. PARENTS ARE PARENTS. Every living soul knew that A MOTHER ID A MOTHER AND A FATHER IS A FATHER. This was the case Until some control seekers in our community and beyond came along.
DeleteFrom a chinuch perspective.
For a child to have a mother and father in their life is priceless. As difficult as it may seem to the therapist. The child nurtures emotional energy form parents and will also learns relationships which will help them for all of life’s challenges.
A few modern day Rabonim decided to go along with therapists and psychologist to create a new phenomenon of children cutting relationship with their parents for safety and security.
After all, if the child alienated from a parent “must be the parent did something terribly wrong”. It is now known that most times it is totally not the case.
Rabonim will go so far as to find sources in the gedoli haposkim to alienate children. This is exactly the problem. They may be talmidei chachomim who can be matir an aguna with their vast knowledge. But when they misuse their powerful position without knowing the facts or without grasping the situation all their shas and shulchan oruch becomes a weapons of mass destruction.
DeleteRabbi D C is the last name who should be involved he has tens of irrevocable karbonos. So even if he will listen to your side and you will disprove his halachic conclusion it is too late.
Did it ever happen that a rov or therapist did something to reunify a family that they mistakenly destroyed?
The alienators are usually extremely wealthy people, they pay shochad (indirect) to the rabonim, psychologists, therapists. People need money to live, so the side with the $$$ is the one that always wins and controls everybody. And if one goes against the alienators, one get punished, beshmutzt, loses his parnasa.
ReplyDeleteOur Torah tells us כבד את אביך ואת אמך, even if they remarry someone that you don't like, even if they remarry too soon after their spouse passed away, even if they have different policies to you, even if they are annoying. As long as people's selfish concerns take precedence over the Torah, we will hear more such stories.
ReplyDeleteSometimes, it is not even Roshei Yeshiva who 'advise' people to cut off ties. I know of a story of a tenth grade Rebbe that 'advised' adult children to cut off ties - the power went to his head and he couldn't say the words 'I don't know' to the people that asked him.
In one case, parents got divorced, and one spouse got 'weird'. That spouse keeps Mitzvos, and follows a Charedi lifestyle. But their life choices are 'weird'. Custodial parent has successfully brainwashed the children not to 'want' to go visit the parent, and custodial parent has enough money to keep this going.
ReplyDeleteResha'im Arurim! Who are you to decide if a child should have a 'weird' parent or not? Hashem gave the weird parent children, and you stole them!
In another case, some guy decided that the new husband of his ex-daughter in law might be over yichud with his granddaughter, so he finagled that the daughter should be stolen from her mother!
The end result of these cases, ביודעי ובמכירי קאמינא, is the organization YAFFED that is fighting Torah in NY. Every time a parent was alienated for 'frumkeit' reasons, an enemy was created. Until they created a coalition to fight us. Big Chachomim the askanim were, collecting money to steal children from non-frumme parents. Now we all pay the price.
I'm truly thrilled for all the commenters here who have never experienced abuse at the hands of parents. Sadly, although you've all been spared, there are many who have not.
ReplyDeleteI'm among them. I wanted a relationship with my parents desperately and put up with all sorts of abuse for many years. I turned myself into a pretzel trying to please their endless demands. I put up with physical abuse - my father beat me with a belt when I was 19 years old - and endless emotional abuse. My mother constantly told me that I was a mistake, worthless, a drain on my parents, unlikeable, and wicked. This, despite the fact that I was a strong student and never made trouble. I was far too scared of their reactions if I had. I took it all.
Once I married, I pleased with my wife to tolerate it and to please me, she did. She tried very hard to please my parents as well, but to no avail. She too, was deemed a pariah and a loser, something they shared with many others.
We still continued to try because Kibbud Av is an important thing.
It was not until my father took the liberty of beating one of my children for breaking a chair in his house that we decided to take a break upon the advice of the rabbonim we were in contact with.
My parents did not take well to this and the abuse escalated and eventually we were forced to cut ties with them altogether for a long time until they finally understood that they had to change their approach.
Our relationship is still very minimal and certainly not healthy, but the door is still open for them anytime they want it.
Therapists that I've spoken to have been extremely supportive, but none of them have ever pushed me to do it. They supported my choice when it became clear that there was no other option.
I'm so glad for those who've never had to make this difficult choice, but please don't be so quick to judge who have been forced to do this.
Abusive parents is a totally different topic. 99% of parents who are suffering from child alienation are very normal, warm and giving parents. In fact, in many instances it is one of several siblings who alienate but the rest are fine. It’s a shita pushed by corrupt therapists and Rabbis and is totally different than children who grew up with abusive parents. Hope this gathering will highlight this.
DeleteI feel terrible for what you have gone through and I wish you much hatzlucha. I am not trying to judge anyone but I have a problem with Rabunim who give advice without first listening to both sides. Too many families have been ripped apart by this alone.
DeleteHere is what you don't understand. The abuse I/we were suffering was not in the open. I couldn't remove my shirt and show the welts that I had from my father's beatings to the rav. He only had my word.
DeleteHe also had my parents calling him and explaining their side, how I was always a thorn in their side and all of that.
It took a while for the rabbonim to understand that although he was a smooth talker, his words were hollow.
Thankfully, a therapist that my wife enlisted in the cause and who understands abuse, helped us compile a list of items which opened the eyes of the rabbonim and helped them understand what we were going through.
Had they not listened to my parents, they would still be urging us to have a relationship with them and place ourselves in harms way.
I am forever grateful to that therapist for her help.
In your case, the one who decided spoke to both sides before reaching a decision.
DeleteThat is light years away from those who decide hearing one side, of course adding a caveat 'if what you tell me is true', and ruin people's lives in the process.
It seems ppl are not familiar what's going on. In most cases we're talking about parents that are destructing their kids lives to a point of getting divorced and the only way to get there paws off their kids is by breaking ties
DeleteYou get credit for trying time after time again to keep the family stable, but you just couldn’t anymore. You did what was right in your unique situation. and the “leg had to be amputated”. No one is judging you.
ReplyDeleteThe problem we are facing is that there many therapists and rabonim that are riding high on your case and using your type of situation as a banyan av to many other cases which are even remotely not comparable to yours. They will use your story as a cover up. “If you will only know what I Know”.....
Most of these cases the children don’t know themselves what their parent “did to them”. It is the therapist that testified based on the therapy finding. It is based on what the Rov said. (and all askonim folllow like sheep to let out there bordism to get involved in another mitzva) The child will either be brainwashed from a young age or will be conviced that he his in a damgrous situation. And the best thing for her health is to cut off ties. And then they enjoy the freedom.
The Shanda is when the therapists become the soul witness in the case. Sometimes it is an angry family member that is responsible to estrange the children.
The issue here is not the 1 3 or 5 percent of the time that are truly a time of crisis. The issue is with the other 95 percent of the time. Where families are victims of the cruel therapists.
ReplyDeleteI don't think your numbers are anywhere near accurate. Abuse happens far more than than this but it's always in private so outsiders won't know. In my case, they definitely didn't and people hard a hard time believing that my upstanding father could be such a monster in private.
DeleteDo you really think that therapists are all cruel and heartless? They're fathers and mothers too. They entered this field seeking to help people, not to harm them. You're painting them as monsters and I don't understand why.
All of the therapists I met with tried very hard to help me maintain my relationship with my parents. None of them were quick to suggest alienation. It was only after a lot of work was done to establish the facts that this became a reality.
I am not the only one in this situation. Sadly, because of my experiences, I know many others. We wouldn't have survived had it not been for a caring therapist. Not all therapists are competent and some are competent, but aren't experts in abuse. But the ones who are, do a lot of good in our community.
Therapists are not cruel and heartless. But those who want to alienate their parents seek out those who are. Additionally, the power trip messes with the heads of these therapists.
DeleteTherapists care more about their salary than about their integrity.
DeleteTherapist are all blinded by their money and prestige position.
Therapists are בעלי גאוה by default.
Therapist are פסול לעדות on any client.
Therapist are in a dangerous position.
Therapist fell in to this trap.
Even someone who is a tzaddik a baal achrayus, a big yerei Shomayim. Is not trustworthy.once he enters the field therapy and counseling.
Specially in our communities where everyone is scared from the establishment and no one has a backbone to stand up/out for the trurh.
The ption that proves the rule?
ReplyDeleteThe problem is the PSEUDO therapists aka DO GOODERS who have no clue what they’re doing and mess up families...
DeleteThey don'yt need to know what they are doing , they have their rabbis who they ask al their shailos to.
ReplyDeleteA frum therapists knows that no frum person will sue them so have an open check to do damage.
Unfortunately that is true. I personally know a Rabbi who was asked to get involved in a certain (messy) case and he refused because the other side refused to meet with him.
DeleteThe complaint against Rabbanim is unfair.
ReplyDeleteWhen someone wants to alienate his parents, he calls a Rav. That Rav refuses to get involved. So he calls another one, who also refuses to. Eventually, he finds one Rav who does agree. Most Rabbonim's opinions are ignored for that one Rav.
It's the same in Halacha. Have you ever heard of a 'world's expert in Eruvin' who forbade an Eiruv? Of course not. He became a world's expert by being meikil. Same with heteirim for abortions, birth control, fertility treatments and more.
Well who should you turn too with questions to the rabbi who knows close to nothing besides the few things he needed to know to pass his test or someone that knows and if your saying that this person doesn't either know we're in bad shape
DeleteThe complaint against rabbonim is fair and should be encouraged.
ReplyDeleteRabbonim got their semicha so they can guide the klal and teach wrong from right.
Rabbonim that see so much evil taking place in front of their eyes must speak up.
By remaining silent and running away they are enabling rishus and will be held responsible.
If they view themselves as puppets who are powerless why should anyone respect them.
You chose to be a rabbi act so!
Dont sit in your study and guide children to rebel in their parents. When that Rabbi is confronted he will say. It wasn't me.
If it wasn't you what did you do to stop it? Why didn't you speak about it in your shul.
Why didnt you make people aware of this danger.
SPEAK UP
All rabbonim should be blamed until they will do their job.
I have endured years of pain observing how a family destroyed their family some nine years ago in Lakewood, New Jersey. They had a nasty, disgusting, downright evil daughter who lied that her father molested her, then admitted to everyone it wasn’t true, but it was too late. The parents were run out of two while another son rationalized her absurd conduct by explaining that the father wasn’t loving enough, and was rigid.
ReplyDeleteHer father had no parnassa for nearly a decade and goes sometimes days without food. The kids rationalize it’s a long time ago, so who cares? All the father has to do is accede to their whims, demand and fancies, and then they’ll talk to him provided he signs a shtar mechila.
All this started because rabbonim listened to messed up kids and never talked to the parents.
How does a Rav have the גאוה to pasken דיני נפשות without hearing out all of the affected parties?
ReplyDeleteWe also need to take into account that these disturbed children are suffering themselves from their own issues and also they convince themselves that they asked their Rav and he paskened that they should cut off ties with their parents. While the Rav hasn't agreed to the above at all.
I am personally familiar with a case in Lakewood some nine years ago. Rabbonim WERE involved with one son who purports to be a ben torah, he's actually a s'gan menahel. But he lied to them, with impunity, and, although he never meant it take it that far, his PARENTS WERE THROWN OUT OF LAKEWOOD. They have no parnassa, nothing.
DeleteNow the son keeps lying to Rabbonim instead of being responsible and getting the mental help he so obviously needs. Just disgusting.
It is irelevant if he agrees or not. A Rov is obligated to act. when a rov is a bystander he will comit a sin of לא תעמוד על דם רעך If Rabonim have no issue bullying themselves to dstroy familys they should also have the guts toget involved to help and prevent estrangment.
ReplyDeleteIt ufortnatly became politcly correct to destroy but unpopular to build.
Being a rov is not only an honor but it is also a dirty job as Dovid Hamelech would say (Brachos 4a) how his hands would get dirty for sholom bayis.
If you can't handle the job being a rov is not for you.
Bystander and enabeler Rabonim should quit ther job. חזרו למערתם
This topic is very difficult. I am very involved with a friend that's been alienated from a married child. The Rav did not ask to speak to the parents and ignored the parents when they requested to meet with the Rav. They want to get a better understanding of why the alienation occurred as no one even told them why other than they "need a break from the parents" and let the Rav see who they are and hear their side. How can one respect such a Rav who won't meet with the parents? Some of these "Rabbanim" are known for giving shiurim. Definitely ruins Emunas Chachamim to a degree. This is a churban in K'lal Yisroel.
ReplyDelete