מלחמתנו by Harav Gershon Ribner shlita Here
What extinguished the passion for learning, nurtured so delicately through years of shteiging as a bochur
Introduction:
Chaim Elya is a chashuva yungerman totally engrossed in his limudim. A fine, up-standing member of his chabura, his opinion and insight in the sugya is appreciated by his peers. Chaim Elya’s wife Aviva, tremendously proud of her husband happily sacrifices to facilitate his hasmada. They know they have something special and are destined for greatness.
Chaim Elya and Aviva have a full schedule. Chaim Elya rushes out to the 7:30 Shachris, and Aviva begins to get their baby ready for the day. After a pleasant breakfast together, Chaim Elya leaves for yeshiva, dropping the baby off at the babysitter on his way, leaving Avivasome leisure time before she heads out to her teaching job.
2:30: Aviva heads home, first stopping off at the local supermarket to do some shopping as she chats with some friends. Arriving home, she has a quick snack together with Chaim Elya, as they watch the baby gurgle in the bouncer. Aviva takes some time to unwind, then wishes Chaim Elya hatzlacha as he leaves for second seder.
The afternoon passes quickly for Aviva, between the baby, supper preparation, and shmoozing on the phone. They relax a bit after supper, and Chaim Elya heads off to night seder while Aviva sits down with a magazine, keeping up with her many serials. Their life is easy and full, and beautifully fulfilling.
Chaim Elya does not take Aviva for granted. He is careful to constantly show his appreciation to Aviva, and frequently expresses his love of learning and how grateful he is that she enables him to learn. Chaim Elya occasionally prepares mini excursions for them to enjoy together, and periodically surprises Aviva with gifts.
One day Aviva meets a friend who has just returned from a glamorous vacation in Florida, who excitedly shows Aviva stunning pictures of swaying palm trees, golden sunsets, beautiful hotelrooms, and miles upon miles of pristine blue waves rippling against the pure white sand. Aviva, mesmerized by the alluring photos, expresses genuine delight and happiness for her friend. Taking in the breathtaking scenery, she quickly snaps back to reality when she realizes that she must pick up the ingredients for supper before she gets home. Throughout the day, beautiful images of sunny Florida keep swirling around her head, and Aviva starts daydreaming about one day taking a luxurious vacation to Florida.
She wishes Chaim Elya a distracted “hatzlacha” as he leaves for seder, and goes about her daily chores, but somehow, they seem boring and unfulfilling compared to the sunny images floating around her head. Aviva’s eyes flit listlessly around their basement kitchen and suddenly focus on the wall calendar- Wait! Midwinter vacation is coming up, and with off from work, maybe they can go to Florida! Her mind starts racing, planning flights, hotels, activities, minyanim where Chaim Elya can daven - and everything comes to a crashing halt.
Chaim Elya.
He doesn’t have off from Yeshiva. It’s in middle of the zman. They can’t go.
But Aviva really wants to go to Florida, and realistically, when else would they have a chance to go on such a vacation? When they’re 50?! Now, she could easily convince their parents to watch their baby for a few days. But will they be able to get away when they have 5 children? 7? Is she going to be the one who never gets to go to Florida?
Technically, they could make this work. They can leave after second seder on Thursday and come back late Sunday night. She has off from work from Thursday to Tuesday, so there’s plenty of time for the packing and unpacking. And Chaim Elya only has to miss Friday and Sunday, like an extended off-shabbos. Not so bad! And she really wants to go.
Chaim Elya arrives home to find a very different Aviva than the one he left in the morning. His upbeat, spirited, dependable and responsible wife has morphed into a woman pining for an exotic vacation to Florida in middle of the zman. He is bewildered by this sudden development. Chaim Elya has been carefully monitoring Aviva’s needs and general spirits, and knows she is not worn-down or overwhelmed. Something external is triggering this desire. And taking off now to Florida will be detrimental to his learning, and additionally, below the standards of a serious yungerman.
But Chaim Elya, sensitive to her yearning and excitement does not want to say flat-out no, so he says thoughtfully, “Let me think about it.”
Aviva then comes across extremely cheap tickets to Florida, and it’s almost an avlah not to take advantage of them. “It’ll only be for a Shabbos, just a weekend, please, I really need it.” Chaim Elya still thinks it’s wrong to go- he knows she has no real need for it; this is just a fleeting wish generated by her friend’s pictures.
Step 1
Chaim Elya feels like he can’t say no at this point- Aviva seems to have caught the travel bug. He reckons that in this circumstance, shalom bayis dictates they go on vacation. To assuage his feelings of guilt he runs the issue by a Rabbi who has a reputation of showing deference to the woman’s position in situations such as these. Chaim Elya does not consult with chashuva bnei aliyah about how they handle similar circumstances. He makes the decision to fly off to Florida.
This is Chaim Elya’s first breach with commitment.
The trip ends up expanding to include Thursday and Monday to allow for packing, traveling, and dropping off and picking up their baby from his parents.
Step 2 see all 15 steps with the solution HERE
Gesmaker story but l’maashe even though he should not have gone to Florida it wasn’t his fault that he got sick there. A guy (couple) who fell apart so easily was probably was one foot out the door anyway. Say he would not have gone to Florida and had an absolute onuss taking him out of Yeshiva for a week and a half then what would he have done? (I don’t think he should have gone to Florida but his wife insisting was also a semi onuss) On another note I highly doubt that in Shmoyim they are more machsiv the PART of the conversations that revolves around HUD appointments, food stamp eligibility and yeshivishe hock over conversation that revolve around making parnosah (oseh Tzedoka b’chol eis...) in step 14
ReplyDeleteTo assuage his feelings of guilt he runs the issue by a Rabbi who has a reputation of showing deference to the woman’s position in situations such as these.
ReplyDeleteBased on my experience and from what I see that would be most Rabbis.
Chaim Elya does not consult with chashuva bnei aliyah about how they handle similar circumstances.
It's safe to say that most chashuva bnei aliyah do not routinely deal with situations of their wives wanting them to go on vacation together in middle of the zman.
The trip ends up expanding to include Thursday and Monday to allow for packing, traveling, and dropping off and picking up their baby from his parents.
Since it was the wife since who wanted it even the rabbis who can be trusted to take the wifes side would agree that she should be doing all the packing and dropping off and picking up their baby herself.
Do not think Chaim Elya’s case of flu was unavoidable, a preordained blow from Heaven that would have occurred regardless of his trip to Florida. Rather, as Chazal say, אם בטלת מן התורה יש לך ביטולים הרבה כנגדו, ie. bittul Torah begets more bittul Torah.
This is of course correct but important point. Very likely (probably) it would not have happened the day he came back. As the Steipler once told his grandson who was making that chesbon "you are not on such a high madrega that Hashem deals with you in manner of if you do something wrong, he repays you that day" Very possibly some אונס that comes up one day was because of a callousness to Bittul Torah that took places months or years ago.
I disagree with the whole ruach of this article. The yeshiva is not providing chinuch and guidance on transitioning from the koslai bais hamedrash to the world of parnassah. Therefore they are blaming the yungerman who is trying to please his wife. How many former yungerleit of big don't daven regularly tefillah bztibur.
ReplyDeleteJust another indictment of an unintended system that rarely works out for families
ReplyDeleteThe basis of this story seems to be that while on vacation he got the flu which caused him to fall behind.. and the rest was history. This is strange as many people who dont go to Florida also get the flu and are out for a week. So we can have the same ending to the story in that case as well. Now truth be told there is one discussion to be has as to whether it is the right or wrong thing to do. Yet the rest of the storyline can and has played itself out multiple times whether one went on vaca or not and whether he got the flu or not.
ReplyDeleteThat is part of the point of the article. A serious yungerman who has an issue for a week or two or has some other difficulty manages to get back into learning. The type of guy who goes to Florida in middle of the zman does not. None of the problems that came up in the article were super difficulties requiring major effort to overcome. But “Florida in middle of the zman yungerman” when faced with difficulties stops learning. It’s both a siman and a sibah
Deleteso then going to florida is beside the point and not the point
DeleteFlorida is just a very blatant and more common example. Any other decision displaying similar callousness toward the zman would also be a similar way of pushing someone one foot out of the door of the kosley beis medrash.
DeleteNaturally, in this hypothetical story all the blame is being deflected onto the wife, who was living a supposedly idyllic life until she got the idea in her head that she needed a vacation to Florida. Can we analyze what brought her to this point? Can we make any mention of the unbelievable stresses of balancing work with mothering, while women don't have the structure of a yeshiva, chavrusa, moreh derech to notice when they are falling and catch them before that happens?
ReplyDeleteGreat musser, However the whole system of BMG 2023 is flawed. It starts with the idea that a "chashuva" bochur has a price tag on him. This shtuss is the cause for today's shidduch Crises umong B'nai Torah. What, a girl who is from a poor family is not allowed to marry a chashuva boy? On the contrary it is the girls from very rich homes who eventually push there chashuva husbands to go on a Florida type trip, and then it all spirals downhill from there like in the story
ReplyDeleteYou must have an ax to grind because even if you are correct this has nothing to do with the article.
DeleteYou are way behind the times
DeleteA 'choshuve bochur' in 2023 does not have a price tag. The idea that choshuve bochurim marry rich girls is so 1990. No longer. Any bochur I know who is truly into learning, is looking for someone from a simple family. The rich can marry each other.
100% years ago the money was not the ikar. The girl had a good job and the parnets helped out and people learnt for years. Today before the 'bais' bochur goes out the mother is asking how much support? So my 'bais' bochur can learn for at least five years.... Now many people feel the mopney is all that matters, forget the fact that the girl has $$$$ and she has a great job and the parents will help... Just how much will the parents give.... This is why there are so many bochurim stting around BMG single. They are waiting for the big $$$$.
DeleteThere aren't so many bochurim sitting around in BMG single. In fact, there are very few. And the idea that the only thing holding those few back is money is just ridiculous. It could be anything and it could be a fluke.
DeleteRegardless, the Alef bochurim are not looking for money, and a money shiduch is no longer considered a 'glick' shiduch. As the Chazon Ish said, "a rich girl's expenses are a definite, the income is a matter of doubt".
Anyone can nitpick a hypothetical situation. They are purposely ignoring the point behind it.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, I've seen the above scenario play out in real life - obviously with different details. I've also seen people who have turned the corner and turned it around. But you must be prepared to start over and recognize that you cannot just place yourself back where you were before indulging in the 'essential' gashmius. Reb Eliezer (Shabbos 147b) turned it around, with much Tefillah and work.
It doesn’t sound like he could have convinced his wife out of going to Florida. Many people have similar issues but what could you do if your wife has big hasagos?
ReplyDeleteSome wives don’t spend much on themselves but when it comes to midwinter they have big hasagos of what will be acceptable to the kids. How should a husband/father who doesn’t want to spend so much and thinks doing something on a smaller scale to keep the kids busy will be sufficient handle it and convince his wife out of it?
ReplyDeleteWhile the support system is crazy and you make some good points I don’t think that is the cause of the shidduch crisis. It’s just not true that boys are turning down every girl because of money. Boys have a few hundred names and girls have none. The boy’s mothers don’t even have enough time to look into half of them.
ReplyDeleteCheck out this week's Mishpacha. For the average decent guy, those days are way over, based on real research
DeleteEveryone is forgetting the friend involved. That friend has a huge achrayus here for perhaps years of learning and Aliya for this yungerman and his wife and ultimately his whole family. Wow what showing off her Florida trip has caused!! Nebach
ReplyDeleteThat's the point, u can't do anything about the wives with the big hasagas, but that's immediately what u r stuck with, when you marry for money, as all "chashuva" BMG bochurim do.
ReplyDeleteare yungerliet really getting 70K starting salary right out of kollel? with no work experience? wow I am really getting underpaid....
ReplyDeleteAs someone who works in an industry that requires people to tell me their salaries it always amazes me how much people are making a year or two out of Kollel. Not everyone of course but many people.
DeleteMaybe if you would be like Elya Chaim and start hanging around people whose talk revolves around Amazon, Wall St., establishing businesses, climbing the corporate ladder, investment opportunities, hedge funds, and networking you would also find or hear about such offers. Not saying that you SHOULD hang around those people or that those people would be interested in you hanging around them. I'm just explaining why you aren't hearing of such offers
DeleteIf he was such a serious guy why did he go to a "Rabbi" and not consult with chashuva bnei aliyah? Fact is these guys were never too serious they married girls who have friends running off to florida? Making these guys sound so innocent so misleading - the kind of guys that get caught up in these type of stories at the very worse ytoyu can say it happened a few years earlier then it could have been... they were far from becoming any rosh hayeshiva.. Does it happen that some guys completely marry the wrong girl Yes but at best they can stall for time you aint gonna change the girl
ReplyDeleteYou write like Rosh Yeshiva is the shpitz of someone who learns his whole life.
DeleteRosh Yeshiva is a certain skill set, it has little to do with ability in learning. Many of those who did not become Roshei Yeshiva are way greater in learning than those who do.
On the one hand there is little toeles in talking to the type of rabbi who always takes the wiles side anyway. On the other hand the "chashuva bnei aliyah" may very likely be the age that Chazal refer to as "binyan na'arim stira". A guy who does not have an older rav or Rosh Yeshiva to speak to is in a sticky situation if his wife starts pining and whining about going to Florida.
DeleteYes people are even making 100k coming out of kolel. I’m considering going back to kolel and starting fresh again. It’s harder to move up with my degree and many years experience.
ReplyDelete