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Wednesday, June 9, 2021
Shiur on Lace Shaitel
Video: Shiur from Harav Shmuel Felder shlita posek in BMG on Lace Cap Shaitel
thanks a lot. At the end of the day, he is basing it on poskim who say that heintiger sheitels, from 5751, 30+ years ago, are a problem. I have no issue accepting the words of all those poiskim (Rav Elyashiv, Rav Vosner, Rav SZ Aurbach), but I don't get the palginan diburah. If we accept what they say, than the issue is much much more than the lace cap, and if not, it is hard to base it on the poskim who said that you must tell the differnce. All the talk that the sheitlach are not ratzon hashem etc., I agree 100%, and think it is devarim pshutim, but again if we are thinking in the terms of ratzon hashem, it is hard to say that the non-lace tops, custom wigs of several thousand dollars are yes ok. I agree lace tops may be more of an issue, but almost everything said can be said on almost everything else.
Who asked your opinion? Your not a Baal plugta and your sevara is defective if you missed the main point about ratzon hatorah that hair should be covered.
Anon (who responded to the first comment): Rabbi Felder doesn't seem to be involving esoterica in his p'sak. And, as long as that isn't the basis for the p'sak, it is eminently appropriate to ask how it differs from those Gedolim referenced. That the first commenter is questioning the "Palginan diburah" seems to me, at least, to be quite on point, and worthy of explanation. He wasn't being combative. In fact, he was quite respectful.
To be clear: This isn't to say that he is correct, but your dismissal out of hand seems rather pedantic and defensive.
Finally, this is blog. The comment section is about opinions. His is as welcome here as yours.
We live in a world were Emuna is the biggest mitzva. It's complicated what emuna and whats not emuna, but people say such foolish things in the name of emunah, truly tragic and dangerous for ruchnius and gashmius ... The next step is emuna in Talmidei chachomim in psak and in advice . Sorry has no valid Mkor in shas or rishonim . Its a chiddush of chasidim and R Dessler says the mkor is 1 of kinyanei Torah Emunas chachomim Look in machzor Vitri says otherwise. Asking good questions is a good thing and following blindly with emuna is unhealthy , so rabosai keep on asking until you understand. My question is, Reb Moshe says No maaris ayin on Aseh , who brings this concept and argues with proofs ?? R Felder said going into goyish restaurant which has lavin is assur . Any asseh thats assur ?
Anon 11:29 - your answer reads like gibberish. What are you actually saying? What are you trying to prove? What does Rav Dessler say? What does the Machzor Vitri say? Read over your answer and rewrite it clearly.
Excellent shiur which beautifully explains the shita of the oisrim. It is difficult, if not impossible, to argue with anything the Rav says.
As a limud zechus on those who are meikil, one could say that wearing a lace cap shaitel is similar to drinking coffee whitener at the end of a fleishig meal—which was forbidden thirty years ago but is now permitted due to current ubiquity of coffee creamer. Now that we know of the existence of lace cap, people would no longer suspect a woman whose hair looks uncovered as violating halacha. Furthermore, Rav Moshe says that it is a safek whether Maaris Eiyin applies to something which is merely an issur aseh, such as uncovering hair, so safek d’rabbanan likula might apply.
Regarding the Ratzon Hashem, again as a limud zechus, one could argue that it is likely that the main problem of uncovered hair is that a person will want to pursue a particular person because of their hair. Once the hair is fake—even if it is better than regular hair—one knows that there isn’t anything UNIQUELY taking about that PARTICULAR person, so one isn’t apt to want to chase after that particular person. Alternatively, one could say that the Ratzon Hashem allows for using loopholes (like a hetter iska or hetter mechira).
As a snif, it is worth pointing out that some poskim—deios yechidos—hold that when the general society doesn’t cover its hair there is no longer any chiyuv to cover one’s hair (Yabia Omer, who was against all sheitels, quotes those who say that sheitels aren’t even required).
Sounds pretty silly. The trumas hadeshen says in Simon 10 that the reason for covering hair is because of pritzus. All Dinim of pleasing husbands are on,y applicable in side the house. Not outside.
Does the trumas hadeshen say "rozton hashm"? Does any halacha sefer suggest this reason? So R' Neiman says, if you want to know what his rotzon is, Isha ksheira oise r'tzon baaloh, that's the rotzon hashm
לעיקוואד. א גרויסע מחבר פון פאפולערע ספרים און א זון פון א מחבר פון פאפולערע ספרים. איך האב אים אנגעקוקט אלס א גרויסע ת"ח.
ער האט אבער געזאגט מאדנע זאכן.
ער האט געברענגט פון הרב משה שטרנבוך בשם מהר"ם חאגיז, אז די סבה פארוואס מיר באגענוגיגן זיך מיט איין כיסוי, ווען דער שו"ע פסקנט אז דת יהודית פאדערט צוויי, איז ווייל דת יהודית מיינט עפעס מער צניעותדיג ווי די גוים, און טאמער די גוים גיין נישט קיין כיסוי, איז גענוג איין כיסוי.
ממילא איז א ראיה אז מיר דארפן זיין מער צניעותדיג ווי די גוים און דעריבער איז א לעיסטאפ שייטעל אסור.
simple question , would you be somech on any of these 4 lakewood poskim for a shaloh in chayvei krisus , or chatzitza ? if yes WHY? so why not trust him now as well ,its been many years since a tznius isur kol korei came out, precisely because these poskim are extremly careful before going public..
If when a person doesn't know the halacha he relies on a certain poisek , is he obligated to listen to the same poisek when he does know the halacha and this poisek holds otherwise ? I'm not interested in anyone's feelings of right and wrong , only clear halacha with mareh mkomos . Thanks
Ah you mean you didn’t look it up? Don’t be scared of a shiltei giborim the worst that will happen is that you will be mekayem the mitzvah of Talmud Torah
If you see a person who is clean shaven, you won't think he used cream. Shaving with cream is no less than shaving with a razor, the face is completely smooth. And it's muttar even though you can get confused. Unless you knew he was frum. A person who wears a sheitel that looks like hair is the same thing. When you know she is frum, you know it is a sheitel. Reb Moshe says this sevara, I didn't make it up.
I don't know how Reb Moshe is the proof for the issur.
I just feel that it is a Chutzpa to totally disregard R moshe Tshuva if they would like to be choilek at least address it. We all remember the BP Eruv where no sevora to be mattir was contemplated due to R Moshe holding it is Ossur so why suddenly here he is jot even addressed
thanks a lot.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the day, he is basing it on poskim who say that heintiger sheitels, from 5751, 30+ years ago, are a problem.
I have no issue accepting the words of all those poiskim (Rav Elyashiv, Rav Vosner, Rav SZ Aurbach), but I don't get the palginan diburah. If we accept what they say, than the issue is much much more than the lace cap, and if not, it is hard to base it on the poskim who said that you must tell the differnce.
All the talk that the sheitlach are not ratzon hashem etc., I agree 100%, and think it is devarim pshutim, but again if we are thinking in the terms of ratzon hashem, it is hard to say that the non-lace tops, custom wigs of several thousand dollars are yes ok.
I agree lace tops may be more of an issue, but almost everything said can be said on almost everything else.
Who asked your opinion? Your not a Baal plugta and your sevara is defective if you missed the main point about ratzon hatorah that hair should be covered.
Deletewe dont use ratzon hashem in psak.
DeleteThat is in mussar seder.
That letter he was referencing was was just one of many points.
DeleteAlthough that peak was not accepted in America, for the most part, he was just bringing out one nikuda from there.
Rabbi Felder is the one who paskens hundreds of shailas a day. I would think he knows what we do or don't "use in pesak".
DeleteAnon (who responded to the first comment):
DeleteRabbi Felder doesn't seem to be involving esoterica in his p'sak. And, as long as that isn't the basis for the p'sak, it is eminently appropriate to ask how it differs from those Gedolim referenced.
That the first commenter is questioning the "Palginan diburah" seems to me, at least, to be quite on point, and worthy of explanation.
He wasn't being combative. In fact, he was quite respectful.
To be clear: This isn't to say that he is correct, but your dismissal out of hand seems rather pedantic and defensive.
Finally, this is blog.
The comment section is about opinions.
His is as welcome here as yours.
We live in a world were Emuna is the biggest mitzva. It's complicated what emuna and whats not emuna, but people say such foolish things in the name of emunah, truly tragic and dangerous for ruchnius and gashmius ... The next step is emuna in Talmidei chachomim in psak and in advice . Sorry has no valid Mkor in shas or rishonim . Its a chiddush of chasidim and R Dessler says the mkor is 1 of kinyanei Torah Emunas chachomim Look in machzor Vitri says otherwise.
DeleteAsking good questions is a good thing and following blindly with emuna is unhealthy , so rabosai keep on asking until you understand.
My question is, Reb Moshe says No maaris ayin on Aseh , who brings this concept and argues with proofs ?? R Felder said going into goyish restaurant which has lavin is assur . Any asseh thats assur ?
Anon 11:29 - your answer reads like gibberish. What are you actually saying? What are you trying to prove? What does Rav Dessler say? What does the Machzor Vitri say?
DeleteRead over your answer and rewrite it clearly.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vTCwXkudWpFtf5MpBwud4xj1XprnbQ1m/view?usp=sharing
ReplyDeleteExcellent shiur which beautifully explains the shita of the oisrim. It is difficult, if not impossible, to argue with anything the Rav says.
ReplyDeleteAs a limud zechus on those who are meikil, one could say that wearing a lace cap shaitel is similar to drinking coffee whitener at the end of a fleishig meal—which was forbidden thirty years ago but is now permitted due to current ubiquity of coffee creamer. Now that we know of the existence of lace cap, people would no longer suspect a woman whose hair looks uncovered as violating halacha. Furthermore, Rav Moshe says that it is a safek whether Maaris Eiyin applies to something which is merely an issur aseh, such as uncovering hair, so safek d’rabbanan likula might apply.
Regarding the Ratzon Hashem, again as a limud zechus, one could argue that it is likely that the main problem of uncovered hair is that a person will want to pursue a particular person because of their hair. Once the hair is fake—even if it is better than regular hair—one knows that there isn’t anything UNIQUELY taking about that PARTICULAR person, so one isn’t apt to want to chase after that particular person. Alternatively, one could say that the Ratzon Hashem allows for using loopholes (like a hetter iska or hetter mechira).
As a snif, it is worth pointing out that some poskim—deios yechidos—hold that when the general society doesn’t cover its hair there is no longer any chiyuv to cover one’s hair (Yabia Omer, who was against all sheitels, quotes those who say that sheitels aren’t even required).
What’s the tzad heter? It’s transparent, isn’t the purpose to cover the hair?
ReplyDeleteRight, and her hair is covered. With a Sheitel. I still don't see any tzad issur.
DeleteThe Poskim dismissed the claim of מראית עין, see the Be'er Sheva et al. And they did not say it is because it is noticeable, they gave other reasons.
R' Shmiel Neiman has a long shiur on Torahantime and says the Ratzon Hashem. Is to please her husband, not the Kol Koreh
ReplyDeleteSounds pretty silly. The trumas hadeshen says in Simon 10 that the reason for covering hair is because of pritzus. All Dinim of pleasing husbands are on,y applicable in side the house. Not outside.
DeleteDoes the trumas hadeshen say "rozton hashm"? Does any halacha sefer suggest this reason? So R' Neiman says, if you want to know what his rotzon is, Isha ksheira oise r'tzon baaloh, that's the rotzon hashm
DeleteYou see her hair through it hence it’s assur.
ReplyDeleteNo you dont.
Deleteלעיקוואד. א גרויסע מחבר פון פאפולערע ספרים און א זון פון א מחבר פון פאפולערע ספרים. איך האב אים אנגעקוקט אלס א גרויסע ת"ח.
Deleteער האט אבער געזאגט מאדנע זאכן.
ער האט געברענגט פון הרב משה שטרנבוך בשם מהר"ם חאגיז, אז די סבה פארוואס מיר באגענוגיגן זיך מיט איין כיסוי, ווען דער שו"ע פסקנט אז דת יהודית פאדערט צוויי, איז ווייל דת יהודית מיינט עפעס מער צניעותדיג ווי די גוים, און טאמער די גוים גיין נישט קיין כיסוי, איז גענוג איין כיסוי.
ממילא איז א ראיה אז מיר דארפן זיין מער צניעותדיג ווי די גוים און דעריבער איז א לעיסטאפ שייטעל אסור.
דער וואס פארשטייט זאל ביטע קומן מסביר זיין.
Arguably we could permit going without כיסוי altogether
DeleteWe obviously don't agree with that
Anon 7:23 - could you share where you got that Yiddish answer from? Is it ivelt?
Deletesimple question , would you be somech on any of these 4 lakewood poskim for a shaloh in chayvei krisus , or chatzitza ? if yes WHY? so why not trust him now as well ,its been many years since a tznius isur kol korei came out, precisely because these poskim are extremly careful before going public..
ReplyDeleteIf when a person doesn't know the halacha he relies on a certain poisek , is he obligated to listen to the same poisek when he does know the halacha and this poisek holds otherwise ? I'm not interested in anyone's feelings of right and wrong , only clear halacha with mareh mkomos .
DeleteThanks
I don’t believe they are extremely careful although I don’t doubt that this is assur and there is no tzad heter.
ReplyDeleteAsk these poskim if it's muttar to vote for LGBT sponsors?
ReplyDeleteGot it?
My version of the Shiltei Geborim differed from Rabbi Felder`s does anyone know which d`fus he was quoting ?
ReplyDeleteNot the one you have
ReplyDeleteAh you mean you didn’t look it up?
DeleteDon’t be scared of a shiltei giborim the worst that will happen is that you will be mekayem the mitzvah of Talmud Torah
If you see a person who is clean shaven, you won't think he used cream. Shaving with cream is no less than shaving with a razor, the face is completely smooth. And it's muttar even though you can get confused. Unless you knew he was frum.
ReplyDeleteA person who wears a sheitel that looks like hair is the same thing. When you know she is frum, you know it is a sheitel.
Reb Moshe says this sevara, I didn't make it up.
I don't know how Reb Moshe is the proof for the issur.
I just feel that it is a Chutzpa to totally disregard R moshe Tshuva if they would like to be choilek at least address it. We all remember the BP Eruv where no sevora to be mattir was contemplated due to R Moshe holding it is Ossur so why suddenly here he is jot even addressed
ReplyDelete