Lakewood Delegation Discuss rampant Child Alienation with Gedolei Eretz Yisrael
Translated from Kikar Hebrew
A horrifying phenomenon is rampant in the USA: "Therapists convince couples - to sever contact with parents"
Last week, a delegation from Lakewood traveled to the homes of gedolei yisrael in Eretz yisrael, to discuss and consult on the burning issue in the USA - the phenomenon of 'parental alienation', an issue that unfortunately has recently invaded eretz iIsrael as well, by irresponsible and evil caregivers.
This is not a new phenomenon, but a phenomenon that has existed for the past decades, so-called professional therapists, receive ultra-Orthodox couples and advise them to tear families apart, that is, to cut and sever ties with parents, which causes families to collapse.
Last week, as mentioned, a delegation led by Rabbi Nechemiah Grama, a well-known and respected lecturer, educator and consultant arrived from Lakewood, and it brought the difficult phenomenon experienced by many in the United States and even in Israel.
The members of the delegation claimed that the young children, teenagers and even married couples who need emotional and psychological counseling, receive treatment from therapists who do not act according to the rules of the Torah and Halacha. The therapists incite the patients against the parents and make them sever the relationship with the parents who supposedly are to blame for the children's condition, and in many homes of Yereim Ushleimim they have reached a state of 'parental alienation'.
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Meeting with Rav Baruch Mordechai Ezrachi shlita last week
The members of the delegation also said that children, young adults and married people just leave their parents' houses and walk out the door.
They visited: Rav Baruch Mordechai Ezrachi shlita Rav Yitzchok Zilberstein shlita , Rav Moshe Tzadka shlita and more, and had the privilege of hearing from them clear instructions for the educators who are dealing with this important and painful issue .
Rav Yitzchak Zilberstein told them "Kibud Av V'em Honoring a father is the greatest commandment in the Torah, there is no doubt about it, it is from the Ten Commandments, we are obliged to do it from the age of zero." . The Torah says wonderful things about this, such as Arichus Yamim and more, tell them that klal yisrael suffered from Hitler, why? Because Amalek was Haman, who came from Esav, and what was his zechus? Because he respected his parents in a most wonderful way, also The gemora quotes Amorites and Tanim who said that they did not reach his level in honoring parents. When Esav came to his father, he wore Shabbos clothing and that is what he earned."
In their words, the elders of Israel stood for the mitzvah of honoring a father, and if the Torah promises the reward of this mitzvah is longevity.
The rabbonim mentioned many maamorei chazal about the obligation to respect the parents even in cases where the children supposedly feel that they have been harmed by the parents.
The gedolim added it is clear to anyone who needs advice or treatment by professionals, that they should only turn to pious and wholesome professionals who follow the path of the Torah and Halacha.
Who were these delegates representing?
ReplyDeleteIs anyone claiming that these couples are not following "pious and wholesome professionals who follow the path of the Torah and Halacha"? All that these "Askanim" accomplished is that there will be a longer road to recovery for young adults that were abused, molested, or diagnosed with a mental illness r"l. why is it that in our community we always take the parents side? These delegates should be representing the children that are in pain that cant afford the therapy that they desperately need. Instead they represent the parents that are so selfish that instead of seeing their childs pain and backing off, they harass their kids for not talking to them every day.
ReplyDeleteI can write all day.....
While there may be extreme circumstances when it's okay to alienate, but the first thing is to meet both sides and ascertain what's going on. Not jump to conclusions. The same goes for shalom bayis speaking to only one spouse never meeting with the other one, you will never have a real picture. To see if the portrayel of the spouse is real or just imagined. R Yehuda Jacobs ztl who worked extensively with therapists used to lament the anti Torah and anti sechel things some were doing.
DeleteFirst of all, every parental alienation is a extreme circumstance.
DeleteIn the case of abuse, molestation or mental illness, do you think its a good idea for both sides to sit down?
Secondly, you are in essence agreeing that either side could be right. so please explain the slant of this article. Why are the children always the villains?
If the purpose of this article was to call attention to the terrible situation that many families find themselves in then it really missed the point. This article took the side of many abusers and molesters while shaming many victims.
All i can say is that you are very lucky that your parents did not do horrible things to you. So do not comment on a topic that you obviously know nothing about
I would appreciate if someone can explain the incentive for a therapist to advise a child to cut off from their parents. Just wondering....
DeleteWOW! since R Yehuda Jacobs ztl used to lament, we are supposed to believe that all therapists do not know what they are doing.
DeleteI have lamented about many dry cleaners in my lifetime. Does that mean that they are always wrong?
I can also write all day but there's no need to when it is already written on the tablets that Moshe brought down.
DeleteThe damage done to the children by alienating them is much worse than the perceived pain the therapists make up as the excuse for the alienation in the first place. The rabbonim are smarter than you and so are the common folk.
And yes they care and feel for these children more than you.
The fact that you took a course and have a paper certificate does not make you any smarter or give you more Seichel.
These delegates are representing the children who are in pain from having been brainwashed by therapists who robbed them of their parents the most important people in their life.
Get off your high horse and look in the mirror. And look again.
i cant wait for the next kol koreh.
DeleteITS ASSUR TO GO TO THERAPY!!!
this is so much fun if not for the fact that some peoples lives are getting ruined as we speak.
Let's hear exactly what the question was, and what did they answer.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, and the few people I know who have nothing to do with their parents, were those abused by their parents. Either physically, emotionally or -ually. They left their parents reach when they finally had the courage to do so and when it negatively affected them starting or getting through their lives.
ReplyDeleteIt's time for the parents to look in the mirror and ask why is this happening? Wee they a great parents? Did the abuse their children in any form.
It's time stop white washing
To respond with therapist lingo: You are victim shaming and victim blaming.
DeleteAbuse is a very abused word its what therapists use to cover for their actions
Deleteunfortunately the moderator wont allow us to use more specific words to describe abuse and molestation.
Deleteit can get pretty graphic.
think of the worst possible thing that someone can do to you and multiply it by 100
Hefkervelt doesn't block the word 'rape', so what are you referring to?
Deletethey blocked me. i tried
DeleteWow here come the therapists with their drivel trying to justify the rishuss and retzicha that has been going on. They use extreme cases and code words of molestation abuse to validate the alienation and ripping apart families. Most cases had nothing to do with abuse but this is their sad attempt to defend their despicable actions and that of the industry.
ReplyDeleteThey are trained with secular hashkafos and think that they are professionals and how dear the simple people call them out in public.
The olam has to wake up to what has been done and still going on.
We have hundreds of living yesomim because if alienation.
Mishpachos that are ruined for life and for generations because of it.
Klal Yisrael must stand up to this.
Your ignorance is not a excuse for the evil that you are espousing. Lives are not ruined when parents dont talk to their children for a while. Lives are ruined when people like you protect abusers and molesters while shaming victims. This is a case specific problem and NOBODY should be choosing sides.
Deleteplease explain how your evil therapist is incentivized to alienate parents
DeleteIt's circular.
DeleteIt proves to themselves their boxed system that they put so much of their self image in is correct
Which gives them further umph to follow it & alienate new patients
lomdish!
Deletebut sadly uninformed
Some suffer from low self esteem or are meglomaniacs and the obsession with power They have over a child or someone under their care causes them to take full control and cut off ties with those that are in the way.
ReplyDeleteAnon 2:49
ReplyDeleteYou use the extreme case hiding behind molest and abuse to condone the alienation of most cases that have nothing to do with abuse or molestation.
You are using it as a human shield to defend the actions of the therapists.
We are not fooled by your talking points. We know the truth.
who cares if i used the most extreme case possible? if it has happend then lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater and convict all therapists. are you volunteering to spend some time with these children? i thought so
Deletewhat a shame.
ReplyDeleteso another couple of girls will get molested by their father until these askanim will wake up
please explain how your evil therapist is incentivized to alienate parents As someone who had very bad experiences with therapists they aren't necessarily looking to be evil people. But they still can be, Things like bias, power, misplaced mercy coming from dealing with only one side and even the sincere desire to solve all the worlds problems have an enormous ill effect on some of them. No therapists has alienated any of my children from me. But they have caused enough other serious problems in my life that I'm experienced enough to say the above.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe you really are the problem but are too self-focused to realize it. If numerous people including your children finger you as the problem, you probably are.
Deletehttps://drsorotzkin.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/eng-honoring-abusive-parents.pdf
ReplyDeleteWhat about the oppisite? Some parent is dealing with some defiant abusive obnoxious teenager literally spitting in their face who is always looking for a fight and excuse to abuse their parents. Do therapists say to cut off ties or do they preach "unconditional love"?
DeleteThis comment speaks volumes about you
DeleteIt does sound like the best thing to do in your case would be to give up your children for adoption since you view, your child as an enemy
DeleteDr. Sorotzkins article should be distributed in every shul
DeleteBy all means give them up. You chose them, they didn’t choose you.
DeleteWe all know of cases of people who cut off ties from a parent when that parent remarries. Those people do so on advice of a therapist, with a psak of a 'rav' (this Rav could be a 9th grade rebbe somewhere, with zero experience, credentials or knowledge, that the child found after heter shopping for a few months. But he has a beard.). These people need to be stopped.
ReplyDeleteAnd to those that ask, why is the child the villain? Because we have a Torah that tells us כבד את אביך ואת אמך. Even if the parent is a 'villain' kibud av still applies.
I find it interesting that you discount their claim of having a psak from a rav put take it as 100% certain that they were told to do so by their therapist. Palginan diburei, I guess.
DeleteNo, we know who the 'Rav' is. He is a child, not an experienced Rav of a Shul. All beard and no knowledge. And this is after the therapist/child went shopping from Rav to Rav to find someone to say what they want.
DeleteThere are gedolim who advised people to distance from their parents.
ReplyDeleteThe Chasam Sofer was told similar by his rebbe.
Not always is abuse physical.
Not always is “complete” separation necessary.
Woah! So one vague story about the Chasam Sofer in his youth is enough to write off a Dioraisa?? Kibbud av is one of the most Chamur mitzvos/aveiros in the Torah. The Gemarah in Kiddushin says that R. Yochanan was "relieved" when his father was Niftar, because he was never sure if he was Mekayem this Mitzvah properly. And the list goes on... and here some moron on Hefkervelt wants people to think the Chasam Sofer was lax in Kibbud Av??!! Speaking of the Chasam Sofer by the way, he writes Mefurash in his drashos that since it says למען יאריכון ימיך regarding Kibbud av, one who does not honor his parents will end up dying young, and will be subject to terrible punishment. Look it up! Sorry, don't mess with the Chasam Sofer!
Deletedid you ever read the chut hameshulash? reb nosson adler took the chasam sofer away from his father and he never saw him again. why may you ask? because he slapped him in public. i dare you to look it up. reb nosson adler must have been convinced by these self gratifying therapists.
DeleteFalse.They stayed in the same house.However they would only converse indirectly through his mother.
Deleteright the part that they left frankfurt was written by the therapist
Delete1. Chut hameshulash is not the most reliable book, for one. R Abraham Genachovsky, who was a descendant of the Chasam sofer, said that many of the stories there were not true.
Delete2. The Chasam sofer named his eldest son after his father. There’s no doubt in my mind that he had the utmost respect for him as required by Halacha. So even if this story is true, it has nothing to do with the issue of parent alienation, which is a trend started by Goyish therapists (I.e Harry and Meghan type thing). The goal is to sever all contact with the parents. From personal experience, these kids hate their parents. They will refuse to have anything to do with them in any way. And they will call themselves victims. Notice a trend? It only starts after they get married… that goes without saying, that they will definitely not name their children after any of their parents.
3. Again, even if the story is true, he did as advised by the Holy Reb Nosson Adler. He was one of the greatest people in Klal Yisroel. The Chasam Sofer said at his Hesped that he was even on a greater Madreigah than a Malach. And then you compare some sleezy therapists and Rabbis to Reb Nosson Adler?? I have no words…
4. Again, assuming there is truth to this story, Reb Nosson Adler advised him to *distance* himself from his father based on what he himself witnessed. That’s not modern-day parent alienation where some garbage therapist instructs the kid to alienate from BOTH parents and never speak to them ever again. In 99.9% of the cases, these therapists have never met the parents. So Halacha aside, how can they even advise this legally? It’s illegal to diagnose someone without knowing them.
5. As mentioned above, the Chasam Sofer himself writes about the utter seriousness of Kibbud Av, where he declares that one who disrespects his parents will lose their share in this world and the next. THE CHASAM SOFER WRITES THIS EXPLICITLY. There is ZERO grounds for complete parental alienation according to Halacha!
Those who have alienated themselves from their parents r”l will never win. We will expose you and your phony excuses. We will take down these phony “therapists” and “rabbis” who advocate for Machlokes and Sinas Chinam. There is no place for this in Klal Yisroel
i just read your first point and burst out laughing. the chut hameshulash was written by the chasam sofers grandson. his father the ksav sofer personally reviewed the manuscript before it was printed.
Deletei guess that when you burp out your uninformed hashkafah you feel the need to blame all previous gedolim for your twisted ideas
Feeling triggered much?
DeleteSocial work in a nutshell:
ReplyDelete1) Social workers barely receive any training.
2) Social workers are not qualified to make any sort of diagnosis. They simply do not have the training/testing/rigerous application for it.
3) Social workers are trained to treat based upon the DMS5. That means that they first need a 'diagnosis'. They're specifically not taught to treat the person in front of them; they're trained to dogmaticly follow the recommended treatment for their non-diagnosis diagnosis. I assure you that it's as insane as it sounds.The resultant catastrophic results are unfortunately way too numerous.
So, to sum up:
Someone for whom it's illegal to make a diagnosis, only knows how to 'treat' based upon a diagnosis. They are forced to make an 'assessment' which they treat as fact. Since the recommended treatment is simply above their head and training, the rigid and sometimes nonsensical application follows.
How much quality is there in that?!
---
There are certainly some superb Social workers out there. But they start off with a natural inclination. They also are sure that they know what they're doing before doing anything. They also have the integrity not to ever do something that doesn't make sense; they won't blindly follow psychobablistic 'treatments'.
you have it all figured out. you are such a genius. can i send you some cases to work with? maybe you can convince these kids out of the trauma
Delete"1) Social workers barely receive any training.
Delete2) Social workers are not qualified to make any sort of diagnosis. They simply do not have the training/testing/rigerous application for it."
Really? That's news to me. They take 60 credit programs - same as speech therapists and occupational therapists, and mental health counselors. That's pretty much the standard for all these types of graduate programs.
They also have to perform 2000 hours of supervised fieldwork. They also have supervisors for the first few years of their professional career.
They're very well trained and many are outstanding.
They take 60 credit programs - same as speech therapists and occupational therapists, and mental health counselors.
DeleteGot it. These 60 credits, based upon limited work and research make them highly proficient in all the complexities of human emotion and the human condition. 👀
Pure arrogance.
But you never addressed the crux of the issue that their training is so poor, that it's illegal for them to make a diagnosis. Yet, their entire treatment model is based off of having a diagnosis. Which leaves too many who make ridiculous assessments and then treat those assessments as fact.
It is clear that they are not qualified to make emotional life-and-death decisions.
Calling facts arrogance is a tactic, but not a very effective one at that.
DeleteOnly an uninformed fool assumes that 60 credits makes them highly proficient in all of the complexities of the human emotion and condition. It doesn't do that any more than 120 credits of medical school makes one highly proficient in every medical condition.
That is not the goal of their schooling. The goal is to provide a strong foundation along with training and the tools to accumulate additional knowledge and expertise as they progress in their career.
Their treatment model is not based solely on working with someone with a diagnosis. That's sheer ignorance. That is one aspect of their role as social workers, but there's far more that they can do.
Look - I understand that you're emotional. Something about this discussion triggered you and I'm sorry that this is so difficult. It's okay to vent, but it's not okay to ignore facts and publish slander. There are many excellent therapists out there and they don't deserve your ire.
Nice to see you projecting your shortcomings on others so proudly and loudly.
DeleteSome of the attacks your attacks are:
A) Uniformed fool
B) Sheer ignorance
C) Emotional
C) Triggered
D) Publish slander
As to the facts:
1) It takes 10-14 years to become a medical doctor. This training is not at all comparable to the paltry training of social work schools.
2) Even doctors have specialties. A podiatrist won't ever pretend to be a cardiologist and get involved in heart conditions. And so on and on... And that's after 10-14 years worth of training. Not the 2 years, mostly part time which Social workers get.
Any run of the mill Social worker is simply not properly trained nor proficient enough to decide to sever the ties and relationship between a parent and child. This is a matter of emotional life and death, which takes a lot emotional knowledge which is simply not part of social work licensure.
3) Claiming that the treatment model of a social worker is not based upon a diagnosis or assessment is a lie. You can use whatever verbage you want in order to obfuscate, but it wont change the facts.
A social worker can also be involved in planning, advocating and pulling resources together. Nobody is commenting about that underutilized roll right now. The issue is unqualified social workers getting in over their heads and dogmaticly implementing ideas which often cause generational severe emotional harm.
Any social worker who is willing to flippantly support severing ties between a child and a parent is committing therapeutic malpractice and should be exposed for their dangerous incompetence.
Excellent. So you're backing off of your original comments that claimed that social workers are inadequately trained. Now you're agreeing that the issue is, "unqualified social workers getting in over their heads and dogmaticly implementing ideas."
DeleteYes, on that we can agree and I'm so glad that you've come around.
It's not due to inadequate training. They're very well trained for what they do, but those who are unqualified because they were never meant to do it or have other issues, can be a problem.
And run-of-the-mill social workers are also the problem as you said - but here's a little secret. There are many social workers who are not run of the mill and are very well trained in a specialty. You may not be aware of this, but most social workers who are worth a plugged nickel spend years learning a specialty within the broad world of social work and gain tremendous proficiency in that area. They're highly respected professionals who would never suggest parental alienation without doing an enormous amount of research into the case, bringing in additional resources to help them, trying multiple approaches to resolve outstanding issues, and much more. Parental alienation is a very serious thing and intelligent people would not advise it as a first, second, or even a third resort. It's only a last resort.
No one does so "flippantly" and that's why your original comment was so lacking in substance. I'm happy to see that you qualified your original statements to reduce the outlandish claims that you rendered.
There is so much missing in this article that it's hard to know where to start.
ReplyDelete1 - Of course כבוד אב ואם is a great mitzvah - no one ever argued that. But there are limits. Chazal tell us that if a father tells someone to do an עבירה, he does not have to listen. So there are exceptions. The question is what those exceptions are.
2 - Who were these askanim representing and why? I have no doubt that they're very fine and upstanding and sincere people. I need to understand what is motivating them to do this and what they're seeking to accomplish and who paid their travel expenses. Without that, we're not going to understand too much.
3 - If a parent physically and sexually abuses a child, is that grounds for severing contact? Would that be a reason for doing so?
4 - Assuming we agree that in those cases it would be the prudent thing to do, we have to agree that not all cases are identical and that there are definitely situations which warrant it. If so, any type of guidance should include those circumstances and advise when it is and isn't advisable. Otherwise this is without context and something out of context is not useful. It's like saying that soda is treiff. Obviously some are and some aren't and nothing is gained from that statement.
These are just some of the thoughts I had when reading this article. I hope that when the askanim release their statements, they'll contain the answers to these questions and many others that I haven't written.
Your comment would be laughable, if it wasn't so sad.
Delete1. Yes, sometimes Kibud Av is pushed away. What does that have to do with this case? It's like saying that Kibud Av is suspended on Tuesdays, because a parent cannot command a child to do an issur. מה ענין שמיטה אצל הר סיני
2. Who cares who they represent? Why muddy the issue with a focus on the irrelevant? The Gedolei Yisroel here are also unnecessary, all they said was a possuk chumash.
3. There are no 'grounds' for severing contact. Even if a parent is a Rasha, we paskin that a child needs to honor them.
4. If a child will suffer severely from contact with a parent, suffering that is equal to a fifth of his possessions, it may be argued that a person need not give away more than a fifth of his possessions for a מצות עשה. Not context or 'grounds' or other such vague terms.
I'm sorry you're having trouble comprehending what I wrote.
Delete1 - If there are times that halachah mandates that Kibud Av is pushed away, that would be VERY relevant to this discussion.
2 - Who they represent similarly is pertinent because special interests abound and if they're acting on behalf of bad actors, that's important information.
3 - There most certainly are grounds for severing contact. If you don't agree to that, there is simply nothing to discuss. The question at hand is what those grounds are. I am aware of two cases where Rav Mattisyahu strongly advised children to break contact with their parents.
4 - So you mean there are grounds? Ok. Good to know. How to define those grounds I'll leave to the gedolim, not an anonymous internet commenter.
It doesn’t have to be sexual abuse. What about verbal abuse to the point that a child gets berated and belittled by his parents every time he has a conversation? A person like that cannot function and sometimes the only eitza is not to talk to his or her parents.
ReplyDeleteSo says who?
DeleteYou decide what verbal abuse is and that justifies alienation?
Where do you draw a line if a parent tells a kid No is that abuse?
Even if the kid gets yelled at who says it means to remove the child?
Therapist have decided that the slightest discipline or any Ill feeling a child has is grounds for alianation.
We are referring to adults here, not to children. So let me ask you if through verbal abuse. The child cannot function properly and causes marital issues, and Shalom bayis issues with spouse and children
Delete"Where do you draw a line if a parent tells a kid No is that abuse?"
DeleteHow about this - where do you draw the line? Who gets to draw the line?
"Therapist have decided that the slightest discipline or any Ill feeling a child has is grounds for alianation."
All therapist? Some therapists?
I know many therapists who would never feel that the slightest discipline is grounds for alienation. They discipline their own children.
The problem with many comments like this is that they overly generalize. There are thousands of therapists. Some are excellent, some are average, and some are awful. Comments like the one above do a great disservice to anyone trying to solve what sounds like a difficult situation. They're frankly hard to take seriously.
Glad that it hit a nerve and proves the point. The therapists use abuse and molest to justify yet no one else can make the same argument the other way. All of a sudden they pretend to only alienate in very severe cases but the truth is loud and clear.
DeleteCome to a broken ties meeting and hear the cries and first hand stories from parents who had their children alienated from them and none of these cases involved any smitten of abuse.
The therapy industry is being called out and they don't like it.
They can't stand that they are challenged by the hamon am who are more caring and intelligent than them.
"Come to a broken ties meeting and hear the cries and first hand stories from parents who had their children alienated from them and none of these cases involved any smitten of abuse."
DeleteNow that is a logical argumant! A parent who abused their childen would NEVER come to a meeting and cry and say they never abused their kids! That is irrefutable proof that there was no abuse in any of those situations. I guess the only ones left to blame are those evil therapists!
What a shameful arrogant hurtful thing to say to the parents who were cut off by no fault of their onè. You shamefully accuse them of having abused their children.
DeleteAgain the therapist can't openly admit that the alienation they caused had nothing to do with abuse but with the heat on they are desperately trying to defend and validate what they are doing
Come to a broken ties meeting and hear the cries and first hand stories from parents who had their children alienated from them and none of these cases involved any smitten of abuse."
DeleteNow that is a logical argumant! A parent who abused their childen would NEVER come to a meeting and cry and say they never abused their kids! That is irrefutable proof that there was no abuse in any of those situations. I guess the only ones left to blame are those evil therapists!
Of course these abusers are hurt people don’t you know abused become abusers, after they get alienated they turn the table around and cry and blame everyone else for their abuses and at that point they realize that it’s took late so the only thing left for them to do is cry 😢 crocodile tears.
The situation is that ppl never want to take on blame, so the only way to fix the marriage, person etc is by blaming a 3rd party. So of course the easiest to blame is parents
ReplyDeleteEasier to blame the therapist for actions the kid took.
DeleteEspecially considering they are bound by confidentiality and cannot go out and say what they did or did not say/do.
DeleteThey use Hippa laws to cover up and pretend that the child said the worst things about the parent.
DeleteHow about we make a law no therapist is allowed to be left alone with a child or the entire session must be taped and recorded so parents can see what really is going on.
the sad reality is that the children are not sending emissaries to israel because they are very busy trying to heal themselves. the parents on the other hand are raising hell to tell the world about these terrible therapists. it makes their ego feel a little better.
ReplyDeletei agree with the parents, having your child not want to talk to you can really hurt your ego. But please realize that if you really cared about them you would give them their space.
for your typical lakewood girl it is extremely isolating to not be able to talk to your parents. who do we call when our child starts walking or talking? its extremely lonely. and if they are doing this extreme step maybe we should trust them when they say that they suffered.
the victims are not talking and the therapists cant. only the selfish parents are making the ruckus. it does feel great when you can say that you were the best parents and the therapist is at fault.
just some food for thought.
I personally know one such situation. Very tragic, really. Mother literally kicked her kids onto the street as teenagers with nowhere to go. They had to find their own places to live in other distant relatives' homes. Now as adults, some of them will not speak with her or invite her to their simchos. What a shock! How can that possibly happen? Must be the evil therapist who convinced these kids. It cannot possibly be kids who are simply in extreme pain and are acting accordingly. I am not saying they took the correct course of action, but there is no therapist to blame here, despite the efforts to do so. In that case, that mother is very prominently involved is these efforts to blame the therapists. In fact, she spearheaded much of these initiatives together with similarly bitter people who cannot face the music for their twisted actions as parents.
ReplyDeleteYou pick an extreme case , and even so who says kids have a right to bounce?
DeleteThe therapists don't speak to the parents they get the case from the case worker and begin their treatment without notifying parents sometimes
do you have anything else to say besides labeling this as a extreme case?
Deleteits extreme and it happens.
thats all that matters
Some of the comments here are so defensive of therapy unwilling to acknowledge that therapists can mess up and cause serious problems. One of the most respected therapists in the therapy world told me personally that had he known beforehand how many people would have tainos on him, how many well intentioned mistakes he would make, how much negios he would have etc. he never would have went into therapy. And he is from the good ones who really had good intentions when he went into it and continues to try to be erlich. He also said that he deeply regrets having brushed off the complaints and criticisms of his clients many years ago because he now realizes that a lot of what they were saying were true
ReplyDeletesome of the comments that you mention are only pointing out the extreme slant of this article
DeleteENOUGH OF THIS GARBAGE ALREADY!!!!
ReplyDeleteWHY DOES OUR COMMUNITY ALWAYS PROTECT ABUSERS AND SHAME THE VICTMS????
THIS ARTICLE WAS WRITTEN TO DEFEND ALL PARENTS INCLUDING THE ABUSERS AMONG THEM. WHY???
DONT TAKE ANY SIDE.
The abusers are the therapists.
DeleteWhy are you protecting them?
Anyone who needs any sort of real help or advise should not be getting it from any website
DeleteTo all parents out there please listen to me if you see your children distancing themselves from you please don’t react eye-catching to them about it instead, try being more positive and more supportive when talking to your children and you’ll see the moon come back children want to talk to their parents but sometimes the parents make it very hard
ReplyDeleteI give you a brocha that you should have many children but still go through life thinking that dealing with difficult children is that easy. When I was twenty, I also thought that way. And continued doing so until I had married children and was dealing with my fifth teenager
DeleteAnonymousJuly 11, 2023 at 11:22 AM That advice may not always help with a very difficult teenager but for the run of the mill moody teenager it probably would work. At least to some degree
DeleteI’m talking about adult married children as well
DeleteDon’t criticize your children just complement them and if you’re concerned about chinuch if they won’t talk to you and you can’t give them your criticism anyway
ReplyDelete& even occasionally compliment
DeleteAfter reading so many hate filled arrogant comments by the pro therapy camp it's scary that these are the ones giving sessions to our children
ReplyDeleteThey pretend to be passionate but have such hate and disdain
so now you assume that all these comments were written by the therapists and not the victims.
Deleteand youre next step is to judge the therapists based on these pain filled posts
Say these comments were not made by therapists but rather by their clients. The anger and anxiousness they show does speak well for going to therapists and their ability to create emotionally stable people. Not even at the cost of cutting off their parents
Deletepeople love generalities. The truth is that some therapists are good and some are bad. some cases of children cutting off ties with parents were justified and others were not. every individual therapist is different and every individual case is different. you can't make one general statement about every therapist or every case.
ReplyDeleteso why the slanted article????
DeleteWhen parents try to stop a child’s shidduch and when he/she does get married they are constantly badmouthing the spouse ruining the marriage. Is that a good enough reason?
ReplyDeleteWhat does the Torah say? Is that a reason to be doche kibud av va'em?
DeleteThe children need to learn to deal with it, and the parent should not badmouth the spouse. But cutting off ties is an issur, and no beracha comes from that.
In this case the Torah does say to cut off ties. A wise parent has a simple fix: commit to accepting their child's marriage and commit not to destroy/badmouth their child's family. Very simple fix.
DeleteIt's midas kneed midah: the grandmother is seeking to alienate the grandchildren from their father. Instead, they are being alienated from their children. But they have a very simple way to correct it.
Sorry, but no. A person is obligated in kibud av va'em, even if his parents mistreat him and his wife. There is no carve out for parents who try and get the child to divorce.
DeleteThe child is in a difficult position, but so are many of us. A poor person is also in a difficult position, that doesn't mean he is permitted to steal.
You keep on using words you don't understand. Please learn the sugya about what kibbud and mora actually are and when they apply. I can provide you with mareh mkomos and teshuvos. This is not the first time in history these things have happened. You seem to be borrowing from the ancient pagan and christian theories that parents own their kids.That is not what the Torah or our poskim have said.
DeleteThe anti Torah hashkafa of the alienation therapists came through with their comments you can see how secularized they have become and how cutting off ties is normal because they decided the parent deserves it.
ReplyDeletePure Rishus
I’m pretty sure the Halacha is that if someone has a difficult parents who make it real hard to be melanin kibud one should move far away I think all you holy people should try learning some Halacha before preaching. And can you stop talking about therapists not everyone goes to therapy
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteHow Arabs manage without therapy
I completely disagree with this horrible misrepresentation of the issues. I know that you mean well but you're doing a disservice to Alienated Children and Alienated Parents by confusing and conflating Parental Alienation with Adult-Child Estrangement. They're 2 VERY different pathologies and require 2 VERY different courses of action. Moreover, sometimes the Estrangement is justified due to a parent's unwillingness to respect and honor the Adult-Child's request for boundaries. Sometimes a temporary distancing is necessary and the long-term goal should be for the Estranged Parents and Adult-Children to reunite. Additionally, as Dr. Joshua Coleman repeatedly states in his book, Rules of Estrangement, the key to reunification begins with the parent's willingness to practice humility and own his/her mistakes - NOT blame the Adult-Child and the Adult-Child's therapist. Sadly, VERY few rabbanim/gedolim have studied these issues with the necessary time, energy, and understanding to grasp what's truly happening. Rabbanim/gedolim blaming therapists is creating even more distance between Estranged Parents and Estranged Adult-Children. Adult-Children have dug in their heels and their therapists being blamed by rabbanim/gedolim isn't going to cause some epiphany whereby Adult-Children wake up one day and just "come back" to their parents.
ReplyDeleteRequest for boundaries -There in a cinch is the problem
DeleteThat itself is a postmodern therapeutic construction
Who told you boundaries are legitimate & proper
They are narrow,atomizing, self adulating,& diminishment of bigger broader familiar traditional saturated atmosphere actually
(If you must-move far away.That was/is
only accepted practice)
Re:Mistakes?How many of your previous ancestors admitted their mistakes to their children?
Goodness,we somehow still possibly managed to move on & survive.& thrive.
All of these books fail to take into account the Torah.
DeleteYes, some Mitzvos are difficult. In the non-Torah world, they try and weasel out of difficulties. Why not? But us Jews have to keep the Torah, we go hungry if we can't find kosher food and we don't lend money on ribbis. So too, when our parents are difficult to get along with, we have to work harder.
This obsession of boundaries,enmeshment, interference, interdependence.
ReplyDeleteTurn around everything therapy has claimed to be bad. Now go beyond(even when difficult) make them wonderful
It is possible, though highly unlikely, that some of the stories of abuse are actually entirely accurate.
ReplyDeleteI have been a victim of abuse on every level. With much time and maturity I resigned myself to following the dictates of halacha and have embraced my parents, made them a big part of my life, and found great success and brocha.
On the other hand, I have personally witnessed a family in Lakewood that fell apart around ten years ago, thanks entirely to idiot mechanchim (and other enablers) who fell for a narrative of seven children who said the very worst things that can be said of a father -- quite literally -- and thereby caused the parents to flee Lakewood. Of course the kids acknowledge that much of the allegations they leveled were untrue -- but they do so only now, and only to a limited few. In the meantime, the parents lost everything -- their parnassa, their family, their reputation. The kids don't care, and they moved on and continue to refuse to retract the motzi shem rah they asserted against their parents in a meaningful way.
The stories they share clearly reflect deep cognitive distortions. Anyone who actually went through what they claim to have experienced can readily sense the deep fabrication and exaggeration at play. But if they weren't coddled, if fools didn't validate their stories without, at the minimum, conferring simultaneously with the parents and others to establish the authenticity of their stories, there would have been some hope for the kids to find redemption in the form of derech eretz and a meaningful relationship with their parents. Instead, they have nothing but the most mawkish story conveying only impressionistic wrongdoings causing the gauziest of harms. It's a tragedy wrapped in a joke and hubris.
I do believe they can make strides. But validation for the sake of validation, without confirming authenticity, is utterly absurd. And it only creates more confusion for those not in the know for real victims who actually suffered.
We have a Torah, and it must be followed. The Torah is the foundation of all that we do. We cannot encourage the complete abandonment of kibbid av. And we certainly cannot tolerate zilzul horim even if were to believe the parents are reshoim. This is basic halacha even for absuive parents. People suffering from trauma must recognize that halacha applies even to them. They must appreciate nisyonos, and engage in therapy, to the extent it may be warranted, for the purpose of moving forward in a healthy, Jewish way of life -- guided by halacha without any equivocation.
Shame on the "professionals" who have encouraged such misconduct. They are idiots who don't know anything about life, psychology or halacha.
If there was a choice between a child going OTD, or the child moving away from their parents and not being mekayeim Kibud Av V'Aim, which would you choose for your child? If you'd rather have the child go OTD instead of "parental alienation", you know that your concern is not about your child's Ruchniyus and his kiyum of mitzvas kibud av v'aim, but rather your concern is for your control of your children, and you're using kibud av v'aim as the excuse.
ReplyDeleteWho makes those the binary choices
DeleteYou clearly are not reading my point carefully.
Deletehttps://www.prageru.com/video/ep-297-our-broken-culture-is-getting-worse-a-i-isnt-helping?utm_source=app&utm_medium=share
ReplyDeleteI thought you'd like this video from PragerU.