Rav Moshe Hillel Hirsch shlita was asked about if he supports voting for Eretz Hakodesh in the WZO elections.
Q. Rosh Yeshiva, they’re asking, from chutz l’aretz, if it’s true that the Rosh Yeshiva supports voting for “Eretz Hakodesh”?
A. "Many have asked me, also from chutz l'artez, and I told every single one of them that they must follow the psak of Rav Dov. 100%. There is nothing to doubt and nothing to discuss."
Rav Dov Landau said Voting for Eretz Hakodesh/WZO: איסור חמור מאד מאד מאד מאד!
there is no heter what-so-ever and any Gadol b'Yisroel that said it was allowed was fed the wrong information. "It's as if they told you to go and serve עבודה זרה!"
This is a translation of Rav Dov Landaus speech on voting for WZO See Here
The WZO was founded with the goal of making Am Yisroel into a secular nation. That was its purpose, and that is what it engages is, and that is what they’ve done – to turn Am Yisroel into a secular nation, without Torah, and without Borei Olam – Rachmona Litzlan – without Torah, without anything!
That was the purpose – and, to an extent, it was to accomplish that purpose that they also built the State, which is secular. The topic of that we participate in the [Knesset] elections in the secular State – that is a completely different topic. But to participate in the WZO, which is entirely kefira in Borei Olam, kefira in Torah, in Am Yisroel as an Am Kadosh L’HaShem, to turn them into Amon and Moav – that is something very very seriously [wrong]. It’s impossible to participate in their institutions. That would be called us having a connection to them, and we don’t!
One can say the sharpest words; I don’t want to express myself more sharply. But the fact is, that [it is] turning Am Yisroel from an Am Kadosh L’HaShem into a secular nation, without Torah, without Mitzvos, without anything.
Q. What’s the definition of the issur – a [halachic] issur or a problem of Chillul HaShem?
It’s everything – being partners with the secular. I’ll say words that are bit too sharp – if the decision would be regarding serving Avodah Zora, would there still be a question? No! This is Avodah Zora; kefira is like Avodah Zora, and even worse!
Q. The issur includes only to run [as a WZO representative] or also to participate in the elections?
To be with them in their institutions.
Q. Is there an issur on each individual on voting?
Each and every individual. Just like if there would an idea that we have to go serve Avoda Zora, would that be a collective issur or on each individual? The WZO says that Am Yisroel is a nation of secularists, and each individual has to declare that he opposed to that.
Q. People ask – is there an issur to vote?
A very, very, very, very, grave issur!
Q. They say that there were Gedolei Yisroel זצ"ל, in the previous generations, who permitted.
They didn’t present them with the question in the way they should have. [These Gedolim] were immersed in Torah and Mitzvos, and the question was presented to them incorrectly.
Q. There are those who already voted, but have the option of cancelling the vote.
They are obligated to cancel, they are obligated to cancel! They are extremely obligated, there is no exemption.
Credit: UKforTorah at gmail.com
This is after months of Eretz Hakodesh not only claiming that Rav Moshe Hillel supports them but Pesach Lerner even saying that "he asks all of his shailos" to him. I guess he forgot to ask this shailah...
ReplyDeleteInteresting, the same people who were using R' Chaim Kanievsky to destroy the Eitznikim are now saying that he was fed wrong information and that we can't go with his psak.
ReplyDeleteAt least R' Malkiel and R' Ahron Feldman are consistent
Reb Moshe Hillel has told many people to vote.
ReplyDeleteEven in this recording, he doesn't say that he holds against voting. He too is saying that he doesn't want to argue with Reb Dov.
כמה גדלה כוחן של בעלי מחלוקת
Are you saying R' Moshe Hillel was lying in this audio clip?!? Besides let's even assume that he really holds of voting, he still believes that for whatever reason we must follow Rav Dov (albeit for the public psak) who does Eretz Hakodesh follow in disagreeing with this hanhaga.
Delete3:45am BINGO
DeleteIt's asur to vote according to all shitas
ReplyDeleteYea Assur to vote in Canadian election
Delete6:58
DeleteSheker Vchozov. Rav Gurowitz still publicly maintains that its a chiyuv to vote, as well as Reb Sh,uel Fuerst, Reb Kalman Epstein and others
As noted above , even R' Moshe Hillel didn't outright say Assur, Reb Chaim ZTL Reb SHmuel Kamenetsky and Reb Elya Brudny clearly all said one should vote. All that changed now is that 2 or 3 kaanoim got on the case and everyone else is now afraid to argue or be faced with the "tactics"
Gotta love and "and others"
DeleteThose three you mentioned all collectively still a daas yachid.
So if you live in Queens and are part of the shaar community, or live in the UK, or follow your local Chicago agudah shul rabbi. Go ahead and proudly follow your personal daas torah, even though you know it's wrong to vote. Take the strength and be mevatel daas to your rabbi. Otherwise, follow ratzon hashem and stay away from wzo.
Keep up your big lies but the facts don't change. R Shmuel said not to vote, R E Brudny said not to vote this time. You can blame the scary kanoyim monster hiding under you bed, but those were not the words of R Brudny or R Shmuel.
DeleteDid anyone see a letter SIGNED by all members of the Moetzes that its assur to vote? NOT EVEN ONE SIGNATURE !!!!! WHY ????
DeleteMoetzes letter are never signed, next.
Delete"One Rosh yeshiva, Rabbi Elya Brudny had reportedly announced his support of those voting in the WZO elections. Shortly thereafter, he was branded a “Zionist” on photoshopped signs that were hung all over Beth Medrash Govoha in Lakewood."
DeleteAnd THAT, is why R Brudny retracted, not because he now believes that its Assur to vote
Rabbi Fuerst retracted.
DeleteNo shame to LIE. Rav Fuerst DEFINITELY did not retract. He is 100 PERCENT PRO-voting
DeleteLol good joke. You either consider rav brudny a clown, who changes his mind because of pressure, and if so you shouldn't be listening to him either way. Or you can believe what he publicly spoke and said that one must follow Rav Dov Landau.
Delete10:48,
DeleteWhatever my personal stance on the subject [ find my critiques online for beyond a decade re: joining the WZO ]
That saddest part of the ongoing reality is that it proves nowadays any Courage is in short supply
The ones LYING are those who claim rabbis kaminetsky,hirsh,levin,Brudny and "others" are pro voting. No reputable gedolim in the USA are pro voting. Besides for Rabbi Lerner and consultwrite's daas torah, of course.
DeleteCall Rabbi Furst and ask him. Out of respect to Rabbi Bess he's not retracting in writing, but he retracted to his olam and who ever asks him. He clearly holds not to vote.
DeleteI spoke to Reb Eliyahu Levin and he is pro-voting. He himself voted.
DeleteWho are the 'reputable gedolim'?
Reb Eliyahu Levineafter hearing details about the vote said to obviously not vote
DeleteAgain, Reb Eliyahu Levin, after hearing everything said about this, still told me to vote. He is constantly poking fun at the idea that this is hischabrus laresha'im or that you cannot sign the declaration. A Rosh Yeshiva of a large Yeshiva, who has hundreds of people listening to his advice, called him to hear his opinion, and he unequivocally told him to tell his constituents to vote.
DeleteAny rumors to the contrary are being spread by one person. I told Reb Eliyahu about these rumors and his answer was, "It is always like this, what can we do?"
There is nobody that can say that they asked him if to vote and his answer was not to vote.
If you can't show something in writing or soundbite, it's just a worthless anonymous rumor. I'm waiting to see something credible from rav eliyahu that carries more weight than an anonymous comment. Untill then I won't be voting. Sorry.
DeleteYou could ask him, if you really wanted to know. But you don't, you prefer to spew nonsense on a blog.
DeleteNo one heard anything from Reb Shmuel. Rav Feldman said he spoke to "someone" from Reb Shmuels house "who claims" that Reb Shmuel said not to. Is that all you got?
ReplyDeleteYou're just a silly troll
DeleteRav Feldman publicly said a name, who's well known, and he's the main gabbi of Rav Shmuel. No rumors, just hard facts of who what when. You're well aware of this, and still don't care because it doesn't fit your fake narrative.
Common you think someone like reb ahron feldman would get up in front of thousands and say that reb shmuel holds not to vote because he heard "someone" "that claims" common your smarter then that!
DeleteMr. Just Saying - the rest of his speech is reason to believe that is precisely what happened.
DeleteWasn't "someone" it was spoke to so and so (Rav Shmuels guy) this morning who told me flat out Rav Shmuel is anti.
Delete12:46 Sorry I asked myself as did others and Rav Shmuel shlita holds to vote.....
DeleteSorry, I asked HoRav Sholom and he said not to vote.
DeleteI asked myself and was told not to vote, so you're a big fat liar
Delete2:45,
DeleteHas little relevance to what his father shlita holds
Elder abuse
DeleteCan't ask a politician
DeleteSince when is r Yehudah Levine a leader and guide to Klal Yisrael
ReplyDeleteAll of the sudden we've all become Samarer chassidim. All the true gedolim of yesteryear would be pro voting, as are most of today's gedolim who refuse to be bullied
ReplyDeleteAll gedolim of all generations forbid voting in their elections.
DeleteYou're completely ignorant on this issue. Practically ALL gedolim said it's a mitzvah to vote. To cite a few: The Chazon Ish, the Tchebiner Rav, the Steipler, Rav Shach, R' Aharon of Belz, Rav Shlomo Zalman, Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman, and almost everyone else. Ridiculous how ignorant of history people are today, but this does not prevent them from having radical shitas
DeleteLet’s safely assume anon 9:27 was referring to the wzo elections which all gedolim said was assur
DeleteHuh? Please tell us which gedolim of yesteryear voted in wzo would love to know some names?
ReplyDeleteMarcheshes Dayan in vilna
DeletePlease provide where the marcheshes says this…
DeleteWhich of them supported having a haredi minister in the cabinet but since 2016 there somehow has been?
ReplyDeleteWhat’s the difference if today this one said to vote or not we know the issue of hischabrus with the Zionist has been established for over 125 years can anyone please say what the heter to join with them is??? What has changed? If you tell me a gadol says it’s mutar than there has to be a reason otherwise this gadol doesn’t come close to the Chofetz Chaim who forbade it
ReplyDeletePerhaps the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation can give more clarity here.
DeleteThere is zero difference between this and voting in the elections, which practically all the gedolei Torah of the past 75 years enthusiastically supported and held it was mitzvah to do! -- E.g., The Chazon Ish, the Tchebiner Rav, the Steipler, Rav Shach, R' Aharon of Belz, Rav Shlomo Zalman, Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman, and almost everyone else. Ridiculous how ignorant of history people are today.
ReplyDeleteThere is a slight difference-very slight
DeleteEhhh facts don’t care about your ignorance and fact is as documented in baos hazman that the heter to join the Knesset is only for the Knesset and nothing else
ReplyDeleteIgnorant people plagiarize Ben Shapiro. In any event, that's one opinion
ReplyDeleteAnon 9:55 do you have any other opinions as to the heter to join the Knesset?
DeleteIt’s not a matter of one opinion it is THE AGUDAHS opinion this is the heter that allowed them to join the Knesset if you’d like to bring up other opinions such as mizrachi than be my guest but at least know those that vote in the wzo are mizrachi
ReplyDeleteAll of the gedolim mentioned above were for joining the Knesset and voting. Those who distinguish between the two are fooling no one but themselves.
ReplyDeleteWow! So insightful! Thank you for those amazing intelligent words! Any proof to what you’re saying?
DeleteNot everything needs to be "proven" scientifically. These are things that any person with seichel understands. You just need a little bit of atah chonein le'adam Da'as and not be completely ignorant of history, and shed your Lakewood herd-mentality.
ReplyDeleteI like this a real hater. Apologies for bursting your bubble but when you just claim people said something without bringing a source anyone with a seichal won’t believe it blindly that would just be silly so no one’s asking to prove it scientifically just asking prof of source of course if there is no proof people get upset when questioned about it
DeleteReal haters are those like yourself, who can't get past the opinions of two individuals, and demonize and ridicule all other credible views espoused by man of equal if not grater stature.
ReplyDeleteI’m going to ignore your hot headed rant and I I know I’m asking a lot but please before spewing can you mention any heter to vote? Why is there no issue of hischabrus with the Zionists?
ReplyDeleteThe same 'heter' that all the gedolim over the decades issued for voting in the Zionist Knesset. [Referring to other people's comments as a "rant" betrays extreme desperation.]
ReplyDeleteAnon 12:08 you’re going in circles…I don’t know how many times one has to ask but please tell us the heter for joining the Knesset and how it applies to the wzo as well (if you can as extra credit feel free to mention who’s heter it is would like to be mefarsim it) I will ignore your rant in brackets
ReplyDeleteIf the Chazon Ish, the Tchebiner Rav, the Steipler, Rav Shach, R' Aharon of Belz, Rav Shlomo Zalman, Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman, and almost everyone else, men of much greater stature in all respects than anyone living today, ruled a certain way, and even said it's a mitzvah, that should be enough for any sane person. There is nothing more to say.
ReplyDeleteAnon 3:48
ReplyDeleteWhat did they say is a mitzvah?