Hashkafah with Rav Gershon Ribner shlita
The modus operandi of Curious George is prevalent amongst us
The preferred method of livelihood: The shver, wife, kollel The shidduch that broke up over a sports debate Susceptibility to the lure of an illicit relationship while engaged in kiruv Crediting early master builders of Torah in America Taking on government officials for alleged discrimination against Jews
How does I contact Rav Ribner Shelita?
ReplyDeletePerhaps argue, it built chassidus in America.The large bulk of draft dodgers who were half-gaas, [MTJ excepted] overwhelmingly became heimish/chassidish.
ReplyDeleteRSFM deserves massive credit,but it wasn't only him.R D Leibowitz;R Yehuda Davis, contributed to that first floor
There was a floor before r yehuda davis because he learned torah before going to Europe
Deletere:Taking on Gov't officials
ReplyDeleteOff-kilter.Predictably.
a. R Gedalia Schorr was invited once to a Monsey zoning meeting.So he came, & sat quietly in the background. An aino yehudi of the zoning board suggested to ask the rabbi what was his opinion as to re: application Amend zoning law.
RGS -to everybody's surprise- spoke & recommended the zoning board shouldn't approve the petition.He explained: people moved to the region for a quieter, better life.It would be unfair therefore to now foist this change on them!
{sequel:The ammendment was voted down & RGS wasn't ever invited back by the yidden again}
b.The inverted backward parable of ganovim coming into your house??Coming into your house?! You're coming into their house!
One frum community was irreparably damaged by the draft. That was the yekkes. They, by and large, enlisted. Except for their best guys who went to Lakewood.
ReplyDeleteThe veterans got their GI Bill [with exposure to the wide world] and never came back.
The yekkes always valued secular studies. RAK gave them a special exemption from the college ban.
DeleteHowever, note how many Lakewood talmidim end up in colleges.
Nothing wrong with it.
relevance, 3:41?
DeleteTp 5:11:
DeleteBy GI bill, you are opposing college education.
11:31pm,
DeleteFederal employment;unhealthy barracks atmosphere;military jet-setting from West Germany - S.korea - Southeast Asia; etc. hard to return to your kehilla tradition afterwards.Not college per se.
Problem is: sports culture has gotten much worse
ReplyDeleteeg in the '50s the pro leagues were tolerating or pushing racial integration..
Now they've been pushing every other stinking integration
Now there's much much more money in it
DeleteBesides, the pro leagues are not pushing integration. It's already overwhelmingly minority.
Someone's friend said kefira mamesh!
ReplyDeleteHe suggested that maybe those who take credit for 'bringing Torah/Yiddishkeit to America' are not worthy of that title.
Oy vey!
How could it be that someone suggests that 'shtussy' idea that those who own lots of real estate in Lakewood did not yarshen complete ownership of you and your family and everything you have?
Reb Aaron did not enter an empty field. Long before he came, the foundations were laid. A family here, a Shul there, a youth organization somewhere else. Each person who worked with real messirus nefesh to fight the tide laid another brick in this edifice. When Reb Aaron came, a basic outline of Yeshivaleit, some of whom had learned in Europe, was there.
Then the post-Holocaust refugees arrived. An entire Mirrer Yeshiva became a role model for anyone who wanted to know what ligging in lernen, with no askonus, shtellers, or money, meant.
Yes, Rab Aaron and Lakewood are a part of it. But not the lion's share, and without Reb Aaron, things would have been slightly different, but not that much.
Anywhere that had charedi refugees looks the same, basically.
Without Rav Ahron the frum world would have the same demographics as Brooklyn forty years ago. Mir and Beis HaTalmud were there and going strong . Chaim Berlin and Torah Vodaas had a wide range from very Yeshivish to not at all (and in the case of Torah Vodaas everything on the sides too) etc. But the current dominance of Lakewood never would have happened. Places like Philly and other Lakewood branches that the winds were blowing in their direction and picking up steam back then, never would have came into existence.
Deletewho cares which town would have had the dominance?
DeleteTorah wouldn't be that different.
The US would look very different without Rav Ahron. How many American born Roshei Yeshiva are there who never learned in Lakewood who opened Yeshivas that did not allow college and go on a Elul to Av schedule instead of Labor Day? Even the few who did, only did so after the Lakewood Talmidim set the precedent.
DeleteChaim Berlin did allow college and they can match Gedolim produced with any other Yeshivah.
DeleteNot in clarity.
DeleteWhen Rav Aharon came, there was only one other shul in town.
DeleteAnd NO yesjivaleit. Rav Aharon had to import them from New Rochelle.
How many of their college graduates became Torah greats?
DeleteAnon 2:31 - If not for the American Rosh Yeshiva, there would have been more European Roshei Yeshiva. And if not for the Mirrer Yeshiva, the tzura of Lakewood would have been far more similar to Ner Yisroel.
DeleteRemember, Reb Aaron was not in Lakewood most of the time, and his hashpa'ah was limited.
"Not in clarity." Wroong. In everything, Chaim Berlin (and Torah Vdaas and Ner Yisroel) can match gedolim.
DeleteThe issue is not how many who went to college became Gedolim. You referred to yeshivos who allowed college. and they produced many gedolim, some of whom indeed went to college. Bottom line is, you can oppose Yeshivos allowing college if you want, but you can't change the facts. Those that permitted it produced many gedolim.
5:27
DeleteYes clarity. And a lack of ostentatious purity.
https://matzav.com/watch-rav-feivel-cohen-mandated-venue-for-torah-jews-is-bais-din/
ReplyDeleteRegrettably too many individuals don't even know that there is an איסור חמורה to litigate in the secular court.
DeleteAnd if they knew, would they care
Deletebatei din claim women dont know they have to go to bet din first, so they just rubber stamp the secular court..
Deleteof course, not true. every lawyer knows disputes have to go to bet din.
even goyishe lawyer know this.
throw out your gemara kesubos, it doesnt apply anymore.
R moshe in darash moshe says matter of factly that the mirer talmidim brought Torah to America. This Conversation is very important since we always consider our actions to be insignificant if we would realize that last time thunder lightning appeared was at Mount Sinai and small actions over time grow into mighty edifices. Not always even in the life of a Torah great do you realize how great his actions are and one person alone has never achieved much only working in tandem with others. To claim that one person no matter how great he was turned over the world is a impossiblity.
ReplyDeletehttps://machontbm.com/brisk-chumash-shiurim
ReplyDeleteThe issue isn't so much if Reb Aaron deserves that much credit or not. The issue is why this is so important. Why does he get so angry about it? Why does he have to make fun of someone who thinks it was the Korean war that saved Yeshivos? How did this become עיקרי הדת?
ReplyDeleteThat is the true problem here.
Because, like in every other part of the Academic, there's an agenda.
DeleteHere too, some guy did some research on the numbers of guys registered in yeshivos during the Vietnam war and presto he discovered the real reason Torah learning exploded in America had nothing to do with R Ahron, it was the draft.
When every guy who has a drop of seichel and some knowledge of history knows that it was R' Ahron who literally pulled guys into yeshiva, but these historians want to pour cold water on the greatness that the public gives to R Ahron
I didn't say the academics were right.
DeleteBut who cares? What actually changes with this narrative or that? Which halacha or hashkafa changes with the narrative that 'Reb Aaron brought Torah to a midbar shmamah'?
Obviously, this is a fight between two agendas. Neither of which cares much for Torah or emess.
It's about the kovod hatorah of R' Ahron.
DeleteIf your grandfather was moser nefesh to establish an organization and then someone comes along and attributes the organization's success to some inane event, it would upset you too
The difference whether those who have distinguished postions though only a single string or two on their guitar have hijacked the band & the whole industry.
DeleteReb Aaron's Yeshiva taught much Torah. How is it his kavod that anything else is important?
DeleteHis success was the shiurim he said, not his political power.
And this 'mosser nefesh' business is ridiculous. What else could he have done? Opened a grocery store? He was a Rosh Yeshiva, he wanted to teach talmidim, and he did so. Very good. But leave the messiras nefesh rhetoric out of it.
11:19
DeleteYou going out of your way to stress the secondary factors of what he accomplished. All the things you're minimize including his brutal self-sacrifice [he wasn't of course the only one, close colleagues just as much] were actually more seismic than that he was concurrently a RY.
'damning by faint praise'
He wanted to teach tsmidin.
DeleteDon't forget, the BMG of today is not due to his a few dozen talmidim.
Or his sons hundred or two talmidim.
It's because the current RYs and their business manager rewrote the business plan to attract donors, and I mean BIG money.
As did CB and Baltimore and TV. And many Israeli yeshivot.
Years, before the sixties they had a handful of mediocre donors, but from the eighties on, it became big money. And big donor alumni.
Tekz and Mir managed to do this to a limited degree in the fifties, but even bet haTalmud never reached that level.
As an aside, all the American born talmidim of Rav Aharon who you refer to as gedolim, went to American high schools. So this chareidi idea today that you can not become a gadol if you learned anything but Torah (Which is behind almost no high school in Lakewood providing Secular srudies) is a myth!
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe Hillel Hirsch proves it !
Gedolim.
DeleteWho decided? official apparatus? organizational apparatchniks?
They have a lot of virtues, but that venerated term should be buried already.It isn't applicable.
Why don't you ask R' Moshe Hillel himself his opinion if Mesivtas in Lakewood should have a robust secular education curriculum
DeleteYou know that he would say NO
I actually don't know. Would he say NO secular studies like most today ?
DeleteBut you're changing the subject
My point was that you can't claim that you can't become a talmid chachom if you learn secular studies in high school. He proves it as does every American born gadol.
I'm not so R' Moshe Hillel Hirsch would oppose English in Mesivta. Every single talmid of Rav Ahron who opened his own mesivta had a decent English program. And some like Rav Eyla Svei and Rav Shmuel Kaminnetsky had a very good one, even by secular standards.
DeleteHe has to represent the establishment now.
DeleteAlso, the highfalutin terms should be buried. Use something less illustrious.The aforementioned have a lot of virtues, but the terms represent a personality and a background that virtually doesn't exist anymore
He's also afraid of R Landau and other kanoim.
DeleteHe told my friend who is q chashuv Rav that of course we should daven for the soldiers , Rav Shach said so. But he won't sat it publicly in EY. And he speaks an excellent English.
And the irony is that every Mesivta in Lakewood with no secular studies is headed by a RY who went to one with full secular studies and they are not producing bigger talmidei chachomim.
DeleteSecularly educated updated RY would be too much competition for them.Destabilizing.Intimidating.
DeleteSecularly educated properly updated Bnei T would be too much competition for the gvirim.Destabilizing.Intimidating.
DeletePhiladelphia was originally a feeder school to bmg. However, due to Rav Yaakov's strong belief in secular studies, they always had a decent secular studies component.
DeleteRav Yaakov was adamantly against g term Kollel for
Deleteeveryone .
He said they are making Lakewwod into their kever.
This didn't come from Gedolim. It just happened
that is long term kollel for everyone
Delete2:58
DeleteEvery statement of his was crystallized and stamped in lead for the era and mosad being addressed. Likely he would say something else nowadays.Better or Worse.
& to be accurate, he didn't say everybody ought to go to solid level secular studies. He held there shouldn't be any total one size fits all. Though overall he was for it, he said the top top best should probably be able to skip secular studies.
I don't see any reason to assume he would say differently today . (Even according to you, we are approaching the point when it will be one size fits all, no secualr studies. He wwould strongly object to that.)
DeleteDo you assume that Rav Aharon would say differently today? Rav Chaim Brisker? Rav Elchonon? Only Rav Yaakov?
Might it be because you don't like what he said?
Regarding long time Kollel for all?"
Be was absolutely opposed to it in the strongest terms.
Deletea.Probably they also were more nuanced than prognosticators imply. Certainly privately they were.
b.Though possibly they felt we are still part of a larger battle, and we can ill afford the luxury of tailored nuance
You can't be a leader if not capable of nuance.
Delete4:44
DeleteWhat a silly comment.
Were they capable? They were all capable. Were they however of the opinion that superseding klal missions would outweigh nuance? You can't be a leader, unless you grasp that too
I guess I'm in good company. Because you think Rav Yaakov was silly because he oposed kollel for all and was for Secular stidied in high school.
DeleteAnon: 2:31 asked: How many American born Roshei Yeshiva are there who never learned in Lakewood who opened Yeshivas that did not allow college and go on a Elul to Av schedule instead of Labor Day?
ReplyDeleteR elya kanarak
R elya Chaim swerdloff
R Eli Meir sorotzkin zatzal
R avremel ausband zatzal
R Dovid Magid
Etc
Probably more than half of yeshivos in the 80s 90s opened by American born were not from Lakewood. True, philly and long beach were earlier, but who’s to say that they wouldn’t have opened if not for the Lakewooders?
Also, there’s the European born that came and built yeshivos ie. Mir flatbush, bais hatalmud, chaim berlin, detroit, woodridge, Torah temima, eastern parkway, etc with no ties to lakewood
William Helmreich interviewed a number of Roshei Yeshiva and Gedolim in the late 70s, culminating in his book 'the world of the yeshiva'.
ReplyDeleteHe asked all of them the same question - to whom can we attribute the massive growth of Bnei Torah in this country?
As far as I recall, not one of them even mentioned Reb Aaron Kotler. Reb Moshe considered it inexplicable and yad hashgacha, others said variations of that, but nobody who was living through it thought that there was any necessity to thank the Korean War or BMG Inc.