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Monday, July 14, 2025
Haskafa Q&A
Hashkafa with Rav Gershon Ribner shlita
Shadchan disappointed with unflattering compensation
The stressful encounter between HG"R S.Z. Aurbach and HG"R Yitzchok Hutner
Sequel: Predicting the time of Moshiach's arrival. Video
it is assur Mideoraisa to question Daas Torah and we must be 100% mevater to rabbinim if they say black is white then black is white and if you question that you are a kofer b'kiur and apikores.
with all due respect, to all due respect , no ones forcing you to listen, its obvious many find it informative and interesting if you dont like tomatoes at the grocery you purchase cucumbers , you dont complain to the store why they sell tomatoes
Seems people often forgot Talmud Yerushalmi (Horayot Aleph, halacha Aleph). Expounding on the passuk, the gemara there states that the mitzvah is to listen to our sages “only when they say about right that it is right and that left is left”
It is sorely needed. The younger generation are empty & they'll be filled with worse elsewhere if they don't get it from here. For the younger folks,& some older folk- all the info is basically groundbreaking
@ 8:38 Since when do people got to blogs and other websites for "toeles?" This isn't exactly a shiur or a mussar shmooz. Yes, it is just entertainment. The more kosher, of course, the better
Rav Kook Ztl was an unbeleivable person and it is a shame that theree are some yeshivish chevra who like to put him down. yesh din vyech dayin. There were many gedolim who held the world of Rav Kook as Rav Ribner states. Just be careful with what you say.
That is an intellectually soft way to explain away the disagreements and highly insulting to those who opposed him. You can study Rabbi kooks seforim And it is very clear why the great gedolim opposed him. Just one vignette when the Hebrew University was inaugurated he said כי מציון תצא תורה ודבר השם מירושלים And that might explain why for example the imerei emes who was not known to be a zealot writes in his letters about rabbi kook אהבתו לארץ ישראל העבירתו על דתו ועל דעתו
Sheker No. 1 - that 'the great Gedolim opposed him'.
Virtually all Gedolim treated him with the greatest respect. The Chafetz Chaim walked out of an Aguda meeting when askanim spoke against him. Reb Chaim Sonenfeld, the other side of the fight in Yerushalayim, wrote and spoke about him as one of the Gedolei Yisroel. Reb Chaim Brisker has letters to him with titles as to that of a Gadol Hador. They sharply disagreed with his hsahkafah, but weren't against him.
Sheker No. 2 - The Derasha at the Hebrew University.
He never said כי מציון תצא תורה about the University. During his lifetime, this accusation was made. And he wrote letters about it, showing the distortion in the words of the kanna'im. He said that he wishes to open a real Yeshiva in Yerushalayim, about which it can be said כי מציון תצא תורה. He didn't say it about the University.
Sheker No. 3 - the letter from the Imrei Emes.
Yes, he wrote things like that. He also wrote great things about Rav Kook. And the resha'im the kanna'im attacked him for that too.
Well read iggeros haraya and pick and choose of the very very strange things he said and held for ex. Playing ball on Shabbos in Israel is maaleh nitzozos!!!. And on and on and on ... and how about the ridvaz hakdoma to peas hashulchan where his followers took out because it had very derogatory things about him .....You are obviously reading books and judging from titles that people wrote on him when he was one of the only Avenues for anyone to get a certificate to enter Israel. You are blissfully unaware of the many many comments gedolei yisrael said about him. In your mind anything Unwritten was not said..... and where did you get that strange story about the chofetz chaim???? You can actually read through all the letters from the imrei emes, and judge for yourself what he wrote earlier and how is mind was formed up later...... and you too agree that he did say that ,and that's a very strong comment
See article written by professor pinchas alpert of tel Aviv University which documents that r' kook did say it and also composed a song/poem with those words, but his son and talmidim censored it because of the backlash against his speech. There are other sources for the speech including an English translation which were not censored at the time. He concludes that the kanaim were right, in their criticism. He seems to be a dati professor. With no connection to the chareidy world
5:18pm. New Commentator here: FYI The Chofetz Chaim story is brought in Rabbi Yoshor's biography of the Chofetz Chaim which had the haskama of Rav Chaim Ozer zatzal
And you are assuming r chaim ozer haskamah is for the veracity of each and every story in the book. Moetzes then was not what it is today..... So who spoke out against?? R elchonon? The dvar avrohom r aharon? This story is missing much detail. R Yeruchom gorelik would repeat some very sharp words about t kook he heard from the chofetz chaim AFTER the ki mitzion comment. Please note the Hebrew U was a cornerstone of the irreligious foundation of the yishuv to compliment it let alone speak at the founding ceremony begs some serious answers
בעז״ה. יום ד׳ כ״ה תמוז תרצ׳׳ו יראו בנחמה. בעיר ד׳ שמה. ידידי הרבנים הגאונים המפורסמים באה״ק. ד׳ עליהם יחי׳ אחד״ש תומעכת״ר שי׳. הנה הגיעני יקרת מכתבכם מיום כ״ט סיון אשר נכבדות ידובר בו על דבר מה שעלתה בדעתם הצעה ליסד אגודת רבנים עולמית אשר בכח מאוחד יוכלו לעמוד בפרץ אשר בדור יתום זה לא יוכלו יחידים להגן על קדשי עמנו בלתי בהתאחדות כל ת יהי׳ כח ענקי שישים תרים בפני סערת הרוחות. ויבקשו הדר׳׳ג את הסכמתי על זה. ויחד עם זה לעמוד בשורת הראשונים המיסדים את המוסד העולמי. אף הציעו בפרטיות הרכבת מועצת הרבנים העולמית. זהו תכן מכתבם. הנני להודיעם דעתי כי עס כל כונתס הרצוי׳ לא אוכל להסכים על זה. ולבד שאינני מסבים הנני מתנגד לזה. באשר כשם שאין יחידים אוטאריטעטים בזמננו שישמעו להם כן אין לנו אוטאריטעטים מי שיעמדו בראש המוסד העולמי. והעיקר באשר למדתי מפי הנסיון במדינתנו המרובה באוכלוסי ישראל ורבנים גדולים ויראים, שכל הפעולות באגודת הרבנים נעשות על ידי איזה מזכיר ופקיד ואינם מתחשבים כלל עם ראשי המועצה. וכמה פעמים עושים גם בנגוד לדעתם והשפעתם, ועושים רק מה שלבם חפץ. ואיך רצוני להאריך בפרטי הדברים ואיך נוכל לתת אמון ליצור מוסד עולמי אם בהמשך הזמן יתנהל בודאי על ידי מזכירים ופקידים׳ ואיך נוכל למסור בידם ענינים כלליים של התורה והאומה, וזהו לדעתי צעד מסוכן וסכנה גדולה, ואין לנו לקבל האחריות והתוצאות ממוסד כזה. גם ההשערה שיהי׳ אגוה״ר עולמית כה ענקי הוא לדעתי רק דמיון. כחות החפשים לא יתפעלו מזה כשם שאינם מתפעלים מאגודת־הרבנים במדינתם. ואם כי בכל מדינה זהו לפעמים ענין הכרחי כלפי חוץ ובאיזה מדינות עלו בידם לעשות הרבה מעשים טובים, אין אני רואה התוצאות מאגוה״ר העולמית. יש לי עוד טעמים ונמוקים שהם מדברים שבעל פה, אך די הדברים שרמזתי בזה, ולשכמותם יספיק הקיצור. ואו״ש וברכה לרומעכת״ר ולכל הנלוים אליהם כנפשם וכנפש מוקירם ומכבדם כרום ערכם הדו״ש תורתם חיים עוזר גראדזענסקי
Tza"i censored alot of his father's stuff to keep him kosher.Wonder how he would have been taken by those who defended him if he wouldn't have been censored
Sheker No. 4 - playing soccer on Shabbos is ma'aleh nitzotzos.
He never said or wrote that. You can read the article in Oros Hakodesh. He discusses strengthening the body and exercise, but nothing to do with Shabbos. In fact, he was at the forefront of the fight against the public soccer games on Shabbos. See the Kuntres Tovim Me'oros from Rav Charlap, his prize talmid (and Rebbe of Reb Shmuel Auerbach), where he explains Rav Kook's opinion on soccer.
Sheker No. 5 - the Ridvaz' letter about him.
The Ridvaz, known for his sharp statements, was 'discovered' after his death to have written the word משוגע about Rav Kook. The letters between them, about the heter mechira, are filled with expressions of respect and admiration. But the Yerushalaym'er kanna'im publicized something that was an obvious forgery, and people run with it. Remember, there was a known forger who invented letters against Rav Kook, as well as against Zionism. He was a mechutzaf after he moved to the US, where he fought Rav Henkin, among others.
The only ones who attacked Rav Kook 'personally' are the Hungarians who didn't know him, such as the Satmar Rav and the Munkatcher Rav. Reb Elchanan wrote a letter to daven for him when he was sick, and all we have from him against Rav Kook is when the rumor was spread that Rav Kook said to donate to the Keren Kayemet. We know he didn't say that, but that doesn't stop the kanna'im.
The story with the Chafetz Chaim is blatantly false. Both because the source is untrustworthy and because the story could never have happened as he repeated it. The idea that the CC read or believed the fish wrapping newspaper is ludicrous.
According to many Talmidim of R' Yeruchem Gorelick he claimed to have heard from the Chofetz Chaim that "You should know that Rav Kook is a Gaon and a Tzaddik, and whoever speaks against him will have to give a Din V’Cheshbon ." I don't know if that is true but the alleged "sharp words" he said quoted by some certainly aren't true. There is no way the CC would have expressed himself in such a manner. About anyone.
The ridvaz is not just letters, in his hakdama to his sefer on shvieis he quotes his direct conversations with r kook, and what r kook told him, that he was desperate for the job because of the money, and he was compelled, to make up a heter.... He writes מעידני עלי שמים וארץ, which is a lashon shvuah. Of course there's much more to be said, but people don't realize that in his youth, most didn't know him well and in his last years most of the bizarre stuff became apparent. Although the brisket rov said that r chaim already noticed it in valazhin. It is similar to chabad that although the rebbe was always peculiar and did his own thing, only in his last 10 years did he really go off the rails, with his yechi, and other stuff. So the timeline is always important
The best that can be said about him is that he meant well, was a bit naive, and was used by the ireligeus to further their agenda. He always claimed he didn't realize things would end up as they did. One example was the Hebrew university that he thought wouldn't have bible criticism and was shocked when they did.
The distortions continue. Read the Hakdamah to Beis Ridvaz and see if he says the slightest derogatory thing about Rav Kook. (Spoiler - he doesn't). Nobody who knew him said anything personally against him. Even when they argued vehemently with his opinions. The timeline is ridiculous. Reb Elchanan respected him - personally, not professionally - until his dying day. As did Reb Chaim Sonenfeld, and the next generation of Gedolei Yerushalayim, such as Reb Shlomo Zalman and Rav Elyashiv. (the Bible criticism story is another legend, unlikely to have happened.)
You can stop using the word sheker , after all you weren't there and do not know exactly what happened you can say that you don't believe but not that it's a lie, and of course you've been disproven countless times in This Thread alone saying that other great people were known for their sharp tongue is insulting and for some reason Reserve their sharp words for very few people among them rav kook. The fact stands he was Pro Heter mechira, esrogim murkavim, and at least those who claim to follow him religiously, are dimetrically opposed to everything all the rest of our torah greats have taught. To keep the leader of mizrachi out of the mizrachi philosophy and claim he did not approve of it is stretching sheker to its limits
When you stop spouting sheker, I will stop using the word.
So far, you have disproved nothing. Still, not one Gadol who knew him has been proven to disparage him PERSONALLY. Not one. Heter mechira is not a game changer, its a halachic opinion. If people get canceled for halachic opinions, that is not my religion. Abaye is no less because the Halacha is like Rava.
And nobody 'reserved their sharp tongue for Rav Kook.' Just not true. Only lowlife kanna'im, the ancestors of those people who do the same today to Rav Shteinman. They are trying, B"H unsuccessfully, to import it to Lakewood.
Well you invented this idea that the hungarians were the only ones who spoke disparagingly of him. And you pick and choose your sources which is cute and immature. and that they didn't know him That's very insulting and ignorant too. You don't have to agree with anyone but to put down everybody who disagreed with him and those who made comments really didn't mean him personally whatever that's supposed to mean. The reality is r yc zonnenfeld declared a taanis the day the rabbanut was created but rav kook was the first rav harashi .At the end of the day the results speak louder than anything else Mizrachi is the spiritual child of rav kook..... And yes to label anybody who disagreed with him as kannaim and to connect them what is happening here in with today is yes. sheker.. And frankly I have gone through many of the writings of rav kook And to me All this ridiculousness as if someone has said that his mind is so much greater than everybody else's. I found nothing super intellectual in his writing. Some utter ridiculousness, and relate to The modox obsession with him as just that an obsession.
We have still not heard of a single non-Hungarian Gadol who disparaged Rav Kook personally. Maybe you are also Hungarian, I don't know.
Rav Sonenfeld was against the institution of the Rabbanut, but he still respected Rav Kook personally. If you can't understand that basic difference, your opinion is basically worthless.
And your history is completely wrong. Mizrachi has nothing to do with Rav Kook, who wasn't even a member. He has no responsibility for them, if he was never born, they would be exactly the same.
The Ridvaz doesn't write that at all. You distorted his words, because that's what you guys do. He writes that he was forced to be mattir, but not that he did it for money.
That's untrue and verifiably untrue, he said he needed the job and if someone would give him a few napoleon he would not have taken the job which was conditional on the heter. If your ilk wouldn't be so dishonest and reprint the sefer without the hakdoma you wouldn't have the gall to lie because every shul would have a copy..... talking about honest people who are level-headed and not God forbid kanaim... but sneaky Liars to boot.
Some more revisionist history.... all I can say the majority if not all of religious zionists consider Rav kook as the spritual father of religious zionists if they all say so at some point your puny opinion doesn't count.
He didn't say he took the job that was conditional on the heter. You need to learn some reading comprehension. But the Ridvaz didn't think Rav Kook was a bad person, even after writing the story you distorted.
Rav Hutner took a haskama on the Toras HaNazir from Rav Kook zt"l however someone took it out from the reprinted version. An attempt to rewrite history.
It goes to show you how respected Rav Kook was by the Oilam Hatorah in prewar Europe. it was only after the establishment of the state of israel that people turned on Rav Kook's ideology.
5:07 Very weak. They claimed much adherence to him & he in his naivetè rallied to them even if unofficially. However towards his end he became disenchanted with them, & much of establishment Zionism.& was attempting to start a better movement
Ab, As to your reference,the commonality is that they like RK both dwelled in escapism. Difference is while for RK escapism was about overly expediting the process of the future. While for them, it was about mortgaging the future for a loftier present
Just one question.....why is someone who is tolerant of criticism of r kook a kanai and someone like r shlomo zalman zatzal who ruined someone's prospects for a job not a kanai?
By the logic behind your question anyone unwilling to hire someone they feel is the wrong person for the job is a kanoi. That is what Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach did. True kanoim (in today’s usage) are people who just shoot their mouths off and preach hatred against everyone, when there is zero possible toeless. Like the people who are still busy with Rav Kook and others who are dead for almost a hundred years or more and either way would have zero influence on anyone they know
With all due respect what is the toeles of these q & a sessions? Is this simply kosher entertainment?
ReplyDeleteIf it is, what's the problem ?
Deleteit is assur Mideoraisa to question Daas Torah and we must be 100% mevater to rabbinim if they say black is white then black is white and if you question that you are a kofer b'kiur and apikores.
Deletewith all due respect, to all due respect , no ones forcing you to listen, its obvious many find it informative and interesting
Deleteif you dont like tomatoes at the grocery you purchase cucumbers , you dont complain to the store why they sell tomatoes
Seems people often forgot Talmud Yerushalmi (Horayot Aleph, halacha Aleph). Expounding on the passuk, the gemara there states that the mitzvah is to listen to our sages “only when they say about right that it is right and that left is left”
DeleteIf someone doesn't like tomatoes and prefers cucumbers they should pose the question to Rabbi Ribner not simply do as they please!
DeleteMy question was what toeles does Rabbi Ribner feel is to be gained by taking time to answer random questions that often have no relevance?
DeleteIt is sorely needed.
DeleteThe younger generation are empty & they'll be filled with worse elsewhere if they don't get it from here.
For the younger folks,& some older folk- all the info is basically groundbreaking
These q&a are for people that didn’t have this or any variation of it when they were in mesivta
ReplyDeleteWhat is the going rate for shadchanus and how much is he getting that he is disappointed about. Why are those details not included.
ReplyDelete@ 8:38 Since when do people got to blogs and other websites for "toeles?" This isn't exactly a shiur or a mussar shmooz. Yes, it is just entertainment. The more kosher, of course, the better
ReplyDeleteRav Kook Ztl was an unbeleivable person and it is a shame that theree are some yeshivish chevra who like to put him down. yesh din vyech dayin. There were many gedolim who held the world of Rav Kook as Rav Ribner states. Just be careful with what you say.
ReplyDeleteDo your research, there were many many who were very opposed too.
DeleteNone of his opponents knew him. Those who knew him, respected him greatly. Even as they fought his ideology.
DeleteSame can be said for the villa Gaon and chasidim, yet that hasn't stopped anyone.
DeleteThat is an intellectually soft way to explain away the disagreements and highly insulting to those who opposed him. You can study Rabbi kooks seforim And it is very clear why the great gedolim opposed him. Just one vignette when the Hebrew University was inaugurated he said כי מציון תצא תורה ודבר השם מירושלים And that might explain why for example the imerei emes who was not known to be a zealot writes in his letters about rabbi kook אהבתו לארץ ישראל העבירתו על דתו ועל דעתו
DeleteSheker No. 1 - that 'the great Gedolim opposed him'.
DeleteVirtually all Gedolim treated him with the greatest respect. The Chafetz Chaim walked out of an Aguda meeting when askanim spoke against him. Reb Chaim Sonenfeld, the other side of the fight in Yerushalayim, wrote and spoke about him as one of the Gedolei Yisroel. Reb Chaim Brisker has letters to him with titles as to that of a Gadol Hador. They sharply disagreed with his hsahkafah, but weren't against him.
Sheker No. 2 - The Derasha at the Hebrew University.
He never said כי מציון תצא תורה about the University. During his lifetime, this accusation was made. And he wrote letters about it, showing the distortion in the words of the kanna'im. He said that he wishes to open a real Yeshiva in Yerushalayim, about which it can be said כי מציון תצא תורה. He didn't say it about the University.
Sheker No. 3 - the letter from the Imrei Emes.
Yes, he wrote things like that. He also wrote great things about Rav Kook. And the resha'im the kanna'im attacked him for that too.
Well read iggeros haraya and pick and choose of the very very strange things he said and held for ex. Playing ball on Shabbos in Israel is maaleh nitzozos!!!. And on and on and on ... and how about the ridvaz hakdoma to peas hashulchan where his followers took out because it had very derogatory things about him .....You are obviously reading books and judging from titles that people wrote on him when he was one of the only Avenues for anyone to get a certificate to enter Israel. You are blissfully unaware of the many many comments gedolei yisrael said about him. In your mind anything Unwritten was not said..... and where did you get that strange story about the chofetz chaim???? You can actually read through all the letters from the imrei emes, and judge for yourself what he wrote earlier and how is mind was formed up later...... and you too agree that he did say that ,and that's a very strong comment
DeleteSee article written by professor pinchas alpert of tel Aviv University which documents that r' kook did say it and also composed a song/poem with those words, but his son and talmidim censored it because of the backlash against his speech. There are other sources for the speech including an English translation which were not censored at the time.
DeleteHe concludes that the kanaim were right, in their criticism.
He seems to be a dati professor. With no connection to the chareidy world
5:18pm. New Commentator here: FYI The Chofetz Chaim story is brought in Rabbi Yoshor's biography of the Chofetz Chaim which had the haskama of Rav Chaim Ozer zatzal
DeleteAnd you are assuming r chaim ozer haskamah is for the veracity of each and every story in the book.
DeleteMoetzes then was not what it is today..... So who spoke out against?? R elchonon? The dvar avrohom r aharon? This story is missing much detail. R Yeruchom gorelik would repeat some very sharp words about t kook he heard from the chofetz chaim AFTER the ki mitzion comment. Please note the Hebrew U was a cornerstone of the irreligious foundation of the yishuv to compliment it let alone speak at the founding ceremony begs some serious answers
בעז״ה. יום ד׳ כ״ה תמוז תרצ׳׳ו
Deleteיראו בנחמה. בעיר ד׳ שמה. ידידי הרבנים הגאונים
המפורסמים באה״ק. ד׳ עליהם יחי׳
אחד״ש תומעכת״ר שי׳.
הנה הגיעני יקרת מכתבכם מיום כ״ט סיון אשר נכבדות ידובר בו על דבר מה שעלתה בדעתם הצעה ליסד אגודת רבנים עולמית אשר בכח מאוחד יוכלו לעמוד בפרץ אשר בדור יתום זה לא יוכלו יחידים להגן על קדשי עמנו בלתי בהתאחדות כל ת יהי׳ כח ענקי שישים תרים בפני סערת הרוחות.
ויבקשו הדר׳׳ג את הסכמתי על זה. ויחד עם זה לעמוד בשורת הראשונים המיסדים את המוסד העולמי. אף הציעו בפרטיות הרכבת מועצת הרבנים העולמית. זהו תכן מכתבם.
הנני להודיעם דעתי כי עס כל כונתס הרצוי׳ לא אוכל להסכים על זה. ולבד שאינני מסבים הנני מתנגד לזה. באשר כשם שאין יחידים אוטאריטעטים בזמננו שישמעו להם כן אין לנו אוטאריטעטים מי שיעמדו בראש המוסד העולמי. והעיקר באשר למדתי מפי הנסיון במדינתנו המרובה באוכלוסי ישראל ורבנים גדולים ויראים, שכל הפעולות באגודת הרבנים נעשות על ידי איזה מזכיר ופקיד ואינם מתחשבים כלל עם ראשי המועצה. וכמה פעמים עושים גם בנגוד לדעתם והשפעתם, ועושים רק מה שלבם חפץ. ואיך רצוני להאריך בפרטי הדברים ואיך נוכל לתת אמון ליצור מוסד עולמי אם בהמשך הזמן יתנהל בודאי על ידי מזכירים ופקידים׳ ואיך נוכל למסור בידם ענינים כלליים של התורה והאומה, וזהו לדעתי צעד מסוכן וסכנה גדולה, ואין לנו לקבל האחריות והתוצאות ממוסד כזה.
גם ההשערה שיהי׳ אגוה״ר עולמית כה ענקי הוא לדעתי רק דמיון. כחות החפשים לא יתפעלו מזה כשם שאינם מתפעלים מאגודת־הרבנים במדינתם. ואם כי בכל מדינה זהו לפעמים ענין הכרחי כלפי חוץ ובאיזה מדינות עלו בידם לעשות הרבה מעשים טובים, אין אני רואה התוצאות מאגוה״ר העולמית. יש לי עוד טעמים ונמוקים שהם מדברים שבעל פה, אך די הדברים שרמזתי בזה, ולשכמותם יספיק הקיצור.
ואו״ש וברכה לרומעכת״ר ולכל הנלוים אליהם כנפשם וכנפש מוקירם ומכבדם כרום ערכם הדו״ש תורתם
חיים עוזר גראדזענסקי
Tza"i censored alot of his father's stuff to keep him kosher.Wonder how he would have been taken by those who defended him if he wouldn't have been censored
DeleteSheker No. 4 - playing soccer on Shabbos is ma'aleh nitzotzos.
DeleteHe never said or wrote that. You can read the article in Oros Hakodesh. He discusses strengthening the body and exercise, but nothing to do with Shabbos. In fact, he was at the forefront of the fight against the public soccer games on Shabbos. See the Kuntres Tovim Me'oros from Rav Charlap, his prize talmid (and Rebbe of Reb Shmuel Auerbach), where he explains Rav Kook's opinion on soccer.
Sheker No. 5 - the Ridvaz' letter about him.
The Ridvaz, known for his sharp statements, was 'discovered' after his death to have written the word משוגע about Rav Kook. The letters between them, about the heter mechira, are filled with expressions of respect and admiration. But the Yerushalaym'er kanna'im publicized something that was an obvious forgery, and people run with it. Remember, there was a known forger who invented letters against Rav Kook, as well as against Zionism. He was a mechutzaf after he moved to the US, where he fought Rav Henkin, among others.
Sheker No. 6 - who spoke out against him.
DeleteThe only ones who attacked Rav Kook 'personally' are the Hungarians who didn't know him, such as the Satmar Rav and the Munkatcher Rav. Reb Elchanan wrote a letter to daven for him when he was sick, and all we have from him against Rav Kook is when the rumor was spread that Rav Kook said to donate to the Keren Kayemet. We know he didn't say that, but that doesn't stop the kanna'im.
The story with the Chafetz Chaim is blatantly false. Both because the source is untrustworthy and because the story could never have happened as he repeated it. The idea that the CC read or believed the fish wrapping newspaper is ludicrous.
According to many Talmidim of R' Yeruchem Gorelick he claimed to have heard from the Chofetz Chaim that "You should know that Rav Kook is a Gaon and a Tzaddik, and whoever speaks against him will have to give a Din V’Cheshbon ." I don't know if that is true but the alleged "sharp words" he said quoted by some certainly aren't true. There is no way the CC would have expressed himself in such a manner. About anyone.
DeleteThe ridvaz is not just letters, in his hakdama to his sefer on shvieis he quotes his direct conversations with r kook, and what r kook told him, that he was desperate for the job because of the money, and he was compelled, to make up a heter.... He writes מעידני עלי שמים וארץ, which is a lashon shvuah.
DeleteOf course there's much more to be said, but people don't realize that in his youth, most didn't know him well and in his last years most of the bizarre stuff became apparent. Although the brisket rov said that r chaim already noticed it in valazhin.
It is similar to chabad that although the rebbe was always peculiar and did his own thing, only in his last 10 years did he really go off the rails, with his yechi, and other stuff. So the timeline is always important
The best that can be said about him is that he meant well, was a bit naive, and was used by the ireligeus to further their agenda. He always claimed he didn't realize things would end up as they did. One example was the Hebrew university that he thought wouldn't have bible criticism and was shocked when they did.
DeleteThe distortions continue.
DeleteRead the Hakdamah to Beis Ridvaz and see if he says the slightest derogatory thing about Rav Kook. (Spoiler - he doesn't).
Nobody who knew him said anything personally against him. Even when they argued vehemently with his opinions.
The timeline is ridiculous. Reb Elchanan respected him - personally, not professionally - until his dying day. As did Reb Chaim Sonenfeld, and the next generation of Gedolei Yerushalayim, such as Reb Shlomo Zalman and Rav Elyashiv.
(the Bible criticism story is another legend, unlikely to have happened.)
You can stop using the word sheker , after all you weren't there and do not know exactly what happened you can say that you don't believe but not that it's a lie, and of course you've been disproven countless times in This Thread alone saying that other great people were known for their sharp tongue is insulting and for some reason Reserve their sharp words for very few people among them rav kook.
DeleteThe fact stands he was Pro Heter mechira, esrogim murkavim, and at least those who claim to follow him religiously, are dimetrically opposed to everything all the rest of our torah greats have taught. To keep the leader of mizrachi out of the mizrachi philosophy and claim he did not approve of it is stretching sheker to its limits
When you stop spouting sheker, I will stop using the word.
DeleteSo far, you have disproved nothing. Still, not one Gadol who knew him has been proven to disparage him PERSONALLY. Not one. Heter mechira is not a game changer, its a halachic opinion. If people get canceled for halachic opinions, that is not my religion. Abaye is no less because the Halacha is like Rava.
The Ridvaz used his sharp tongue for everyone.
DeleteAnd nobody 'reserved their sharp tongue for Rav Kook.' Just not true. Only lowlife kanna'im, the ancestors of those people who do the same today to Rav Shteinman. They are trying, B"H unsuccessfully, to import it to Lakewood.
Well you invented this idea that the hungarians were the only ones who spoke disparagingly of him. And you pick and choose your sources which is cute and immature. and that they didn't know him That's very insulting and ignorant too. You don't have to agree with anyone but to put down everybody who disagreed with him and those who made comments really didn't mean him personally whatever that's supposed to mean. The reality is r yc zonnenfeld declared a taanis the day the rabbanut was created but rav kook was the first rav harashi .At the end of the day the results speak louder than anything else Mizrachi is the spiritual child of rav kook..... And yes to label anybody who disagreed with him as kannaim and to connect them what is happening here in with today is yes. sheker.. And frankly I have gone through many of the writings of rav kook And to me All this ridiculousness as if someone has said that his mind is so much greater than everybody else's. I found nothing super intellectual in his writing. Some utter ridiculousness, and relate to The modox obsession with him as just that an obsession.
DeleteHeter mechirah is a pesul? So R Sharon's shtikle on heter mechirah makes him passul too??
DeleteWe have still not heard of a single non-Hungarian Gadol who disparaged Rav Kook personally. Maybe you are also Hungarian, I don't know.
DeleteRav Sonenfeld was against the institution of the Rabbanut, but he still respected Rav Kook personally.
If you can't understand that basic difference, your opinion is basically worthless.
And your history is completely wrong. Mizrachi has nothing to do with Rav Kook, who wasn't even a member. He has no responsibility for them, if he was never born, they would be exactly the same.
To create a heter for $$$ as the ridvaz related he was told by r kook and swore a shevuah to its truth. Is a pesul....
DeleteThe Ridvaz doesn't write that at all. You distorted his words, because that's what you guys do.
DeleteHe writes that he was forced to be mattir, but not that he did it for money.
That's untrue and verifiably untrue, he said he needed the job and if someone would give him a few napoleon he would not have taken the job which was conditional on the heter. If your ilk wouldn't be so dishonest and reprint the sefer without the hakdoma you wouldn't have the gall to lie because every shul would have a copy..... talking about honest people who are level-headed and not God forbid kanaim... but sneaky Liars to boot.
DeleteSome more revisionist history.... all I can say the majority if not all of religious zionists consider Rav kook as the spritual father of religious zionists if they all say so at some point your puny opinion doesn't count.
DeleteHe didn't say he took the job that was conditional on the heter. You need to learn some reading comprehension.
DeleteBut the Ridvaz didn't think Rav Kook was a bad person, even after writing the story you distorted.
Rav Hutner took a haskama on the Toras HaNazir from Rav Kook zt"l however someone took it out from the reprinted version. An attempt to rewrite history.
ReplyDeletehe took it out himself. in later years, he tried very hard to distance himself from Rav Kook and his philosophy.
Deletewas for political expediance
DeleteIt goes to show you how respected Rav Kook was by the Oilam Hatorah in prewar Europe. it was only after the establishment of the state of israel that people turned on Rav Kook's ideology.
DeleteThe new Artscroll book has R Kook with other gedolim very surprising that they published it
Deleteit's the New artscroll. Shame on them.
DeleteTza"i censored his father. There are enough hidden problematic material
Delete5:07
DeleteVery weak.
They claimed much adherence to him & he in his naivetè rallied to them even if unofficially.
However towards his end he became disenchanted with them, & much of establishment Zionism.& was attempting to start a better movement
Why on earth does it matter?
ReplyDeleteIt matters very very much!
DeleteUnless,that is, you're from total bleeting sheep.Like our local jewish North Koreans
Interestingly, check out David holzer's audio for another distinguished maverick individual who wasn't that enamoured of him.
Deleteab,1:43
ReplyDeleteIndeed.Alot of the early chassidish trailblazers should be at a minimum put in a similar category.
Ab,
DeleteAs to your reference,the commonality is that they like RK both dwelled in escapism.
Difference is while for RK escapism was about overly expediting the process of the future. While for them, it was about mortgaging the future for a loftier present
Just one question.....why is someone who is tolerant of criticism of r kook a kanai and someone like r shlomo zalman zatzal who ruined someone's prospects for a job not a kanai?
ReplyDeleteBy the logic behind your question anyone unwilling to hire someone they feel is the wrong person for the job is a kanoi. That is what Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach did. True kanoim (in today’s usage) are people who just shoot their mouths off and preach hatred against everyone, when there is zero possible toeless. Like the people who are still busy with Rav Kook and others who are dead for almost a hundred years or more and either way would have zero influence on anyone they know
DeleteAs if it is less relevant now!
DeleteOn the 100th anniversary
from the other side now-
https://jewishaction.com/jewish-world/history/what/