Tens of thousands in Lakewood went to selichos motzei shabbos at chatzos, men women bochurim, girls and young boys to the traditional selichos in their local shul or yeshivos just like their parents and grandparents but there's nothing newsworthy about it.
Previously submitted
I went to shul heard a fiery speech from the Rav, the chazzan began the traditional kadish to the tune of yomim noraim, fathers with sleepy eyed children, old and young were in the audience all asking for forgiveness as we get ready for the Yom Hadin. When it was over we went home. There were no photographers, no guitars, no organ, no cello, no musical instruments, no dancing, no entertainment, no carlebach nusach no kumzitz. It was a simple selichos recital seen in many shuls across the world the way it was done last year, and the year before, with the authentic nusach. But you wont see a video of it on the websites because its just perhaps too old fashioned or not newsworthy. Not here to take away or make light of what others do but we have become a man bites dog society.
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Last year A letter signed by senior Rabbonin Eretz Yisrael and by Rav Gershon Eidelstein strongly opposes the selichos concerts with musical accompaniment. The letter calls on the organizers, musicians and baalei tefilah to refrain from this new pirtzah.
Much as I wouldn't go to a musical selichos and don't consider them l'chatichila, l'maaseh you don't know whose tefilos and selichos are valued more in shomyim .
ReplyDeleteRead the letter, it's very polite. It states the Rosh Hashana is in the words of CHA"ZL "a time of trepidation and solemnness". Have we become so fickle that we can't handle that not every Yomtov is Purim.
DeleteThese style Slichos were intended for ppl who were estranged from yiddishkeit and wouldn't have participated otherwise.
Wow such wokeness you question how valued the selichos of hundreds of thousands of Jews are in shamayim as perhaps the new way is more accepted in shamayim
DeleteI don't think it is a particularly woke thing to say that in Shomayim they may value the attendance of the bochurim in Mesivta of Eatontown at their musical selichos more than mine. Where did I even remotely question the value of anyone's selichos?
DeleteNot everyone is bound by Litvish / yeshivish psak
DeleteMB opposes almost all chazzanut. That might have been the mesorah in (boring) Lita where the overwhelming majority was mechallelei Shabbat (they didnt teach you that in yeshiva, but its true) , but rest of Jewish world appreciated chazzanut.
The objections to an organ in shul was not the organ, but chillul Shabbat (and that it was a Reform attempt at emulating Christians).
Other kehillot appreciated good chazzanut.
Anon 5:24 - In those countries that appreciated Chazanus, the overwhelming majority was also mechalel shabbos. Hungary, Poland and other places included. Nothing to do with (boring) Lita.
DeleteAnd in Lita they also had Chazzanim, see the introduction to Aruch Hashulchan (Oz vehadar print), how he did not like it, but allowed it anyway.
Read the memoirs of Chazan Kwartin here https://www.amazon.com/dp/1523805234 for more history.
If you dont like it then dont go. There are thousands of yidden that enjoy it. Halacha allows it.
ReplyDeleteWhere in heavens did you get the notion that halacha allows this?
DeleteI am sure that you are aware that we don’t say hallel on RH
If someone would ask you is it assur what would you tell them?
Nothing wrong with reinforcing the traditional way with a sense of pride those who can’t deal with tradition can be part of our community but there is no reason why we should consider what they do laudable
do the chassidishe rabbonim and gedolim have an issue with musical slichos? or is it just the litvishe ?
ReplyDeleteand how about just singing without instruments ? are the litvishe against that also ? halevei this should be the biggest aveirah in our circles...
Even independent of selichos most poskim oppose musical instruments in shul due to it being chukas akum to play music during prayer services. As far I know the only one to ever write an actual teshuva - not supporting - but allowing musical selichos is a sefardish chacham (Rav Meir Mazuz) I'm sure he himself doesn't go them. If we only worried about the biggest aveirah in our circles we would have leeway to do so many averos... R'L
DeleteThis is the slippery slide to kaalus
Delete&That leads to other aveiros
we should make a kol korei with an attached chereim on anyone who attends this new "mehalech" this is not our mesora and can lead C'V to people going off the derech with their new age ideas. In Europe my zayde told me people trembled all of Elul and didnt even make chasunas then.
ReplyDeleteSee the Sdei Chemed maareches choson v'kallah ois 23. The gedolim in Europe themselves wrote to him that (circa 1880s) they are unaware of any minhag not to get married in Elul and the current minhag the gedoley hador then was to be mesedar kiddushin until the week of selicos
DeleteI am more inclined to put people who refuse to make chasunas during Elul in cherem than putting people who make musical slichos in cherem, to be honest.
DeleteUh...there is an attached kol koreh about musical selichos right here. But it isn't worded nearly as strongly as your post. It calls on those who organize and attend them to stop but doesn't actually explicitly say they are forbidden. Let alone add a cherem on them
DeleteHungarian minhag was to make weddings even erev RH.
DeleteI remember being invited to a cousin's Sheva berachot on Shabbat RH, and her husband is yeshivish.
Mazel tov to them on their son's engagement.
Nebach on them
DeleteExplains a bit how come so many left for other pastures
How about Uncle Moishy
ReplyDeleteCan we now have an Uncle Moishy selichos
Rav Edelsteins letter was meant for HIS COMMUNITYin Bnei Brak. It is a completely different culture lifestyle . Here we have many different acceptable derachim and many different moray horoah who guide and pasken for their own communties. Each community and each rav paskins for his community. This is since we no longer have a sanhedrin. This is how psak has worked. for 2000 years.Do you think that in Bnei Brak they would welcome the opinions of Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky, Rav Reuven Feinstein, Rav Dovid Cohen, etc?? Certainly not.They shouldn't.There are 2 different cultures, in fact many different cultures who may want to express their yiddishkeit in different permissible ways.You have to stop being so narrow minded. This is not Europe 100 years ago.
ReplyDeleteDo Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky, Rav Reuven Feinstein, Rav Dovid Cohen etc. support musical selichos?
DeleteQuite an ironic post considering that those who do support musical selichos base themselves on the teshuva of a Bnei Brak Rav (R' Meir Mazuz)
DeleteHave you seen a letter from them similar to the one from gedolei Bnei Brak??
Deleteלֹא רָאִינוּ אֵינוֹ רְאָיָה
DeleteWe are progressive.Pluralism. How can anything be beyond the pale.
DeleteLet serve cashews
The opposition to musical selichos does not originate from and is not unique to Bnei Brak . You can go to a place like YU Torah and listen to a shiur on the topic or look at the teshuva written by Rabbi Dovid Lau (chief rabbi of Israel) on the topic if you think it’s just yeshivish baaley musser who came up with the opposition. As should be obvious. if I know what those sources say I’m no kanoi. If someone’s Rav is OK with musical selichos I’m not telling him otherwise .At all . I’m only responding to those who are claiming that the opposition is some new fangled chumra or very limited
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DeleteLocal or Lackluster
Other variations of "L"
ReplyDelete