Sunday, February 18, 2018
Audio: Secular Subjects in Yeshivas
Headlines Podcast
One Thousand Dollar Sandwich - Is it Kosher?
with Rabbi Aryeh Leibowitz - Rav of Beis Haknesses of North Woodmere - 16:15
Secular Subjects in Yeshivas
with Rabbi Gedalya Weinberger - Chairman, PCS - Chairman Emeritus, Agudas Yisroel - 33:30
with HaRav Shmuel Kamenetzky Shlit"a - Rosh HaYeshiva, Philadelphia - 54:20
with HaRav Dovid Yosef Shlit"a - Rav, Har Nof - Member, Moetzet Chachmei HaTorah - 55:20
with HaRav Mendel Shafran - Av Beis Din Hayashar V'hatov Yerushalayim, Rosh Yeshiva Noam Hatorah Bnei Brak - 106:30
with HaRav Nissan Kaplan - R"M Yeshivas Mir, Yerushalayim - 58:00
with HaRav Hershel Schachter - Rosh Yeshiva, Yitzchok Elchonon, Leading Posek for OU Kosher - 107:45
with HaRav Nochum Eisenstein - Rav in Maalot Dafna, Talmid of Rav Elyashiv - 110:40
with HaRav Zalman Gifter - Rav, Nesivos Mordechai Toms River, NJ - 122:50
with HaRav Mayer Schiller - Spokesperson for New Square - 136:15
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I listened to a lot of this audio, and honestly it is a perfect example of someone who is trying to twist halachah to fit their agenda.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, the question of the $1,000 sandwich being Achilah Gassa is ridiculous. Is the sandwich that much larger than any other sandwich? Does it have to be eaten by one person? Is their a time frame in when it has to be eaten? It is clearly not a question of Achilah Gassa, there is no shaalah regarding the making of a brachah. Might it be Ball Tashchis? Possibly, is it indicative of a bigger problem of too much gashmius, as the guest Rav mentioned, definitely, but nothing to do with Achilah Gaasah.
Then the mentioning PETA and humane treatment of animals was just the icing on the cake. Maybe Fois Gras is a problem of Tzar Bal Hachaim, I am not familiar with it, but citing PETA is chukos hagoyim, PETA believes that Shechitah itself is inhumane. This is a cause celebre of the leftist "Hollywood Rabbis" who want to integrate kashrus into the moral standards of the leftist causes.
ReplyDeleteRegarding English in High School, personally I think it is important (although granted my opinion isn't worth much, but I do personally pay money so my son will end up with a high school diploma). However, I disagree strongly with the reasoning.
Lets not pretend for a minute that someone will get a job with a livable wage solely with a high school diploma. That is just not true. Tell me one job, that pays enough to support a family that hires based on a high school diploma. It does not exist.
Now lets say you want to argue, that the piece of paper isn't important, but the education is. That really isn't the case. In high school arithmetic, you learn algebra, geometry and possibly trigonometry, unless you plan on becoming an engineer, architect, or mathematician, those skills are worthless. I don't know many CPA's that are familiar with Pythagoras theorem.
Now what about science? In high school you learn Biology and Chemistry. Unless you plan on becoming a chemist, geologist, or work in the pharmaceutical field, chemistry is useless. As far as biology. Biology is a reuirement for some fields (Therapists, PA's, Dr's) butfrom what I recall,the High School Biology Text Book, can be read over a weekend. Aside for that, it is taught in 9th grade, how many high school graduates do you think still remember what they learned in 9th grade?
As far as the chassan that Lichtenstien constantly quotes, that didn't know 5x5, that is 5th grade math. When I went to school, we had to have the math tables till 10 memorized in 5th grade. the fact that Lichtenstien mentioned this, to prove the importance of a secular education, even though he well knows that is taught in grammar school, proves he is disingenuous.
I happened to have gone to a yeshiva that had a secular program. In 12th grade, the Yeshivah had the class take the PSAT test. Some of the students, took the English classes seriously, others did not. The entire class scored in the 70 percentile or higher, but interestingly, the ones who scored in the 90percentile and above, where the ones who did not take their English classes seriously.
So, given the above, why do i make sure my son will get a high school diploma? It is not because the English Diploma in itself has any value, but because in my opinion, one never knows what their childrens situation will be later on in life. At some point, it may make sense for them to get an online degree, or take a course that requires the piece of paper as a pre-requisite. However, the notion that the high school education in itself, or the high school diploma in itself has any value is ridiculous.
FYI The only reason that the high school diploma has any value, is because of the current system in America, where typically higher education can only be achieved on college, and a high school education is a per-requisite for that. The system itself is in many ways a failure, and has become a hot topic politcally. Many people go to college and graduate with worthless degrees, and can't get a job, and on the other hand, many people who want to specialize in certain fields, are required to get a 4 year degree, and spent a fortune in treasure and time on courses that are irrelevant to the field in which he wants to study.
JoeBagel
I don’t understand your reasoning about the value of knowledge, any knowledge, or the lack thereof. On the practical application of the “hard sciences” to earn a living I definitely agree with your cynical disposition. But to undermine the inherent value of knowledge as a goal in itself, is a theory that I just can’t wrap my head around. Literacy, knowledge, curiosity, ambition, (and stubbornness) are the qualities that Jews had as tools of survival for two millennia.
DeleteSo you agree that the hard sciences are a waste of time. (Go around to the highly educated, who are in their 40's and ask how many of them remember the elements tables, theorems, or postulates. It will be close to zero)
DeleteAs far as literacy, the same can be said. How many people have a lasting benefit from reading A Tale of two cities, To Kill a Mockingbird, or The Great Gatsby. History and Geography server their purpose and come up often in conversation when doing business, but this hardly requires a 4 year high school education.
Hashem Yitan Chochmo L'chachamim. People who are intellectually curious will pick up knowledge, those who aren't, will not.
Not literacy, but Jewish literacy. For hundreds of years, many successful Jews were illiterate outside of the topics that were important to them;Torah and their immediate jobs
DeleteHow about 600 hundred years of Jewish poets in Andalusia writing in Arabic? From as early as Saadia Gaon in Iraq to Shmuel HaNagid to Yehuda HaLevi to Ibn Ezra? The literacy rate amongst Jews in all the countries we were in from northern Africa, to Yemen, to Christian Europe were always way above the local populace. That’s a fact.
DeleteIt is well a known historical fact that there was a strong difference in opinion between the Ashkenez Rishonim and the Sefared Rishonim on this issue on this issue, with the Ashkenez Rishonim being opposed to spending time learning chachmas hagoyim.
DeleteIt is also a fact that vast majority of Rabbonim today or against people having Internet....... there is an important distinction between Hashkafah and reality.
DeleteThe fact remains that Jews, wherever they lived, were considerably more literate than the local population.
For someone who so highly values education. You knowledge of History and Jewish History is lacking. Historicaly, Ashkenazi Jews did not learn secular subjects, for the most part, and the vast majority were not even fluent in the local language (Laz if Rashi, was the Yiddish if his time.)
DeleteThere is no evidence that I have seen, or even credible claims that Jews were more literate in their host countries language than other people. During the Middle Ages, all learning was discouraged by the Catholic Church, they also performed their services in Latin, a language that no one understood, as a means of controlling the masses. In this way, Jews were different, as we are encouraged to learn the Torah and understand it.
As far as the difference of opinion among the Sephardi and Ashkenazi Rishonim, history has borne out, that the Ashkenazi View, of focusing solely on Chachmos Hatorah was superior. Although the Sephardic communities produced many great Chachamim,in the long run, it could not compete with the widespread Torah Scholarship that existed among Ashkenazim, and left the masses susceptible to shmad. That is why the Sephardim, have moved towards the Ashkenazi point of view (as HaRav Dovid Yosef Shlit'a Articulated).
As far as your comment about the internet, that is a prime example of misdirection. When you lose the argument, and may not even realize it.
Sincerely Joe Bagel
"For someone who so highly values education. You knowledge of History and Jewish History is lacking. (Ad hominem). Historicaly, Ashkenazi Jews did not learn secular subjects, for the most part, and the vast majority were not even fluent in the local language (Laz if Rashi, was the Yiddish if his time.)
DeleteFrom "Jewish Women of Medieval Euorope"
"In recognition of this social reality, as well as under the influence of the prevailing mores of the Christian environment, Rabbi Gershom ben Judah (c.960-1028), the first great rabbinic authority of Ashkenazic Jewry, is credited with the ruling that polygamy (already rare in this Jewish community, although still legally permitted) was forbidden and more significantly, in opposition to rabbinic law and practice, that no woman could be divorced against her will.
"Familiarity with money led many women to take the initiative in business matters, and often they supplied a part of or even the whole of the family income, sometimes allowing their husbands to devote themselves to study. During their husbands’ absences on business, women ran the families’ affairs….Women engaged in all kinds of commercial operations and occupations, but moneylending was especially preferred.
Widows would frequently continue their financial activities, occasionally in partnership with another woman. Such undertakings, which could be extremely complex, undoubtedly required literacy and training in mathematics and bookkeeping skills. Some women were probably involved in craft activities as well, and there are also some references in Christian sources to independent Jewish women who practiced medicine.
The level of religious education among Western European Jewry certainly included literacy in Hebrew for all men, and for a small elite, considerably more. Occasionally, these higher standards also applied to women, particularly those from families distinguished for their learning. In the early twelfth century one of the daughters of Rabbi Shlomo ben Isaac (Rashi), the preeminent biblical and Talmudic commentator of the Ashkenazic Middle Ages, is known to have recorded responsa (answers to legal questions) from her father’s dictation, an undertaking requiring knowledge of rabbinic Hebrew…"
"As far as the difference of opinion among the Sephardi and Ashkenazi Rishonim, history has borne out, that the Ashkenazi View, of focusing solely on Chachmos Hatorah was superior. Although the Sephardic communities produced many great Chachamim,in the long run, it could not compete with the widespread Torah Scholarship that existed among Ashkenazim, and left the masses susceptible to shmad."
Really?! The minor detail of the expulsion of 1492 had nothing to do with the disruption of Jewish life and scholarship of Spanish Jewry? Embarrassing comment.
And how did that "superior difference of opinion" do, when Haskalah showed up in Europe? Decimated the Litvishe world, closed Volozhin, caused riots in Telz. Reb Yisroel Salanter went to speak to Harav S R H on how to implement Torah Umadah in Litah.
"As far as your comment about the internet, that is a prime example of misdirection. When you lose the argument, and may not even realize it."
This I'll ignore as immaturity. Even though I went to a Chassidishe TT, and Yeshivos with no formal education whatsoever.
Joe bagel says it perfectly, I won’t ruin it by adding!
ReplyDeleteI don't think there is any intrinsic knowledge that is of major lasting value in high school English. Certainly not past ninth grade.
ReplyDeleteEven so the peripheral knowledge about the larger world is an important thing to have. Particularly for those who won't remain in learning their whole lives and for those who aren't cut out for learning all day in ninth grade anyway.
To make one observation. Generally speaking, the more a kehila cares about giving a good secular education the higher it's official standards of "Glatt Yosher" are.
Sheker. That last statement is absolutely not true.
DeleteNo mention of Rav shach? #missed the boat
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know if Meir Lichtenstein, Menashe Miller, or any other local success stories graduated High School? I heard AK didn't even attend high school!
ReplyDeleteMy russian cleaning lady didnt graduate. She rakes it in.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteTo make one observation. "Generally speaking", the more a kehila cares about giving a good secular education the higher it's official standards of "Glatt Yosher" are.
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You could not have said it any better. You Hit the nail on the head.
אמת לעמיתו!.