The Litvish Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah in Eretz Yisroel came out with a strong letter opposing the growing trend of Selichos events with musical accompaniment. The Moetzes stressed that the days of Selichos are meant to be a time of teshuvah, charatah, and cheshbon hanefesh as we prepare for the Yemei HaDin, and should not be turned into entertainment or a musical performance. They called on the tzibbur not to participate in, support, or help fund such events, and specifically opposed holding them in shuls and batei medrash. They further stated that tefillos and Hallel should likewise not be held with musical instruments, calling on Klal Yisroel to remain true to the mesorah of our forefathers as we approach the Yemei HaDin.
The "amcha" yid has been abandoned by the establishment he cannot get his children into schools he is not offered spiritual development as a shiur or rabbinical guidance. And so they are seeking some spirituality possibly in the wrong places for example going to uman despite having nothing to do with breslov or chassidus. This tire needs to be addressed not repressed.
ReplyDeleteditto
DeleteAnd attempts to cancel the largest Daf Yomi movements from the Siyum Hashas are already underway.
ReplyDeleteClose Mordy Shtieble NOW!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI don’t understand how someone could say such a statement. And I don’t even Daven there. Mordy’s shitbel serves a purpose. Maybe not for you or me, but for yenim who finds his place in klal yisroel. Don’t shut that guy out also.
DeleteThe amcha yid can go to the chassidim
ReplyDeleteDoes this apply even when the bais hamikdosh will be rebuilt?
ReplyDeletethere wont be davening as we now know it.
DeleteShemonah Esrei for sure not.
Hallel will only be while shechita of korban Pesach
Maybe for Simchat Torah.
They don't seem to recognize that many, if not most, people can't be inspired by reciting Slichos, written poetically in a way that they don't understand. That's even with English translation.
ReplyDeleteRav Hutner ZTL recognized the problem and in Chaim Berlin, Slichos are shortened.
They say the intro (much easier to understand) slowly and then say only the "main" Slicha daily , its usually the one in large print and said responsively.
Those who signed on this (Mostly "kanaim") would probably oppose Rav Hutner's "innovation" as well.
And perhaps these Roshei Yeshiva, instead of just protesting, could take a short break from their brilliant shiurim and teach their talmidim the meaning of the slichos as well as words of inspiration to make them more meaningful.
the amcha should join chaim berlin
DeleteSelichos is a Minhag HaGeonim, not a Takanas Chazal.
ReplyDeleteNot too long ago every town had a maggid who inspired the masses and raised them up spiritually it's not selichos specifically but rather that once one leaves yeshiva he can go decades without a shiur or shmuz. To a great extent the rabbis are responsible that is their job that is their calling. They failed. Criticizing those who are doing it wrong without offering any sort alternatives despite the job in their responsibility is a chutzpah
ReplyDeleteThere is a shortage of Rabbonim whose speeches are geared towards baaley batim? I don't know about EY but in the US there are many. When did Roshei Yeshiva EVER gear their themselves towards baaley batim unless they were also communal Rabbonim at the same time?
DeleteFor example r aharon who spent most of the week in borough Park dealing with the needs of all of klal yisrael.... How many shiurim say in Lakewood which has approximately 10,000 baalei battim... A handful? The average Rabbi does not even feel that it is his responsibility to deal with anything to do with the klal
DeleteWhy couldn't they show a little love, instead of just putting down?
DeleteHow about saying something like, "We know that some introduced music out of a sincere drive to elevate their slichos and become closer to Hashem.... but never the less..."
We all know that the Novominsker or Rav Pam would do that.
but this town would smirk all cynical when they would do that
DeleteSo? Let them!
DeleteI don't know anyone who went OTD from going to Uman
DeleteBut I also don't know anyone who prefers to be condescended to with 'we know...but nevertheless'. The insult in that way of talking is far greater than this straight talk of 'this is wrong'.
Correct. However I know many that are off the Derech that went to Uman.
DeleteThere are probably more BTs from Uman Rosh Hashana than those who go OTD. That is assuming the claim that many have gone OTD because they went there is true. I don't!
DeleteSome people don’t go to shul at all over selichos.
ReplyDeleteThey need music/uman.
The rest of people should stick to the ways of old.
Some times life is ocean.
you'd be surprised how many lakewood residents otherwise talmidei chachachim dont daven three times a day. usuallly they do if its not too invconvenient. if there's a good kiddush in shul, they do.
DeleteAnd you're worried over slichot?
They start with selichos and then throw in hallel and then any tefilla in a shul.
ReplyDeleteTheir problem is not really the instruments or the yemei hadin. its the perceived lack of seriousness and a different hashkafa than theirs.
I'm no Uman Rosh Hashana guy or supporter of musical selichos but I will say this. From the few people I know who actually go to Uman on Rosh Hashana (actually the only) is someone whose parents were told by the Lakewood experts when he was a OTD teenager that they need to come to terms with the fact that he will never be frum again. Somehow the Breslov/Uman matzav brough him back. On the flip side even in YU musical selichos are frowned upon. I've listened to shiurim on YU Torah on the topic and even they did not think it was so simple. Although R' Meir Mazuz wrote a teshuva in support even some of the poskim the YU crowd goes with have written teshuvas in opposition.
ReplyDeleteIf you find out davening uninspiring maybe go to a conservative Shule or a church
ReplyDeleteIf talmidim aren't inspired, how about inspiring them?
DeleteI know many Erliche yungerlite who came back from Uman OTD!!
ReplyDeleteYou really hang out with the wrong crowd if you know many Erliche yungerlite who came back from Uman OTD.
DeleteI know many BTs and OTDs and regular menchen who came back from Uman even stronger in their yiddishkeit.
Deleteto 3:50 -- because Lakewood frowns on OTD programming.
DeleteAt least Mordy's Shtiebel does, see how that's criticized here, even more so in the litvish / yeshivish olam.
Ask those that signed this kol koreh if they approve of chazzanut at all.
ReplyDeleteThey oppose it too.
By the way, last night I was at a wedding (here in Lakewood), and they sang a few selections from slichot and yamin noraim davening.
Is that acceptable?
(Of course, the band was not from Lakewood.)
Oh, the Rabbonim 'don't understand', they are 'out of touch' with the amcha yid, they need to get with the times.
ReplyDeleteRemind me when we first heard these words, and how the claim ended up.
Not everyone with facial hair is 'rabbanim', but the idea that it is the amcha yid who is 'in touch' and not those who actually have responsibility for the outcome is ridiculous.
If you think these performances are fine, how about you spend some time thinking about why some wise people think differently.
These wise men know what not so wise people told them.
DeleteHave they watched a video of a serious one
They don't understand the challenge that Slichos present to so many.
Rav Hutner did because he was wiser than them
Face it: it was the main complaint of the Besht & earliest chassidim
DeleteNothing wrong with saying Rabbanim have become out of touch with the amcha.
So there's nothing wrong with saying it because the Besht already did it?
DeleteWhat are you smoking?
Btw, that claim was invented in the 'memoirs' of someone who was born in 1880. That is not what the original sources claim.
excellent, we need many more kol korehs in this town and in general klal yisroel, ALL concerts are assur since the beis Hamikdash we need a kol koreh banning those immediately, furthermore sports leagues have no mekor in our mesora and should be banned.
ReplyDeleteSeems good.
DeleteThe oilem missed the boat.
ReplyDeleteI don't think the Gedolei Eretz Yisroel would have written this letter if it was about the musical Slichos in the US. The ones in the US (for the most part) are very inspirational and serious. Yehuda Green's slichos inspires thousands. (He was the first to do so.)
They are referring to the ones in Israel. The last few years, the Slichos in Israel has become a real concert, graced by rock stars and politicians. Especially this year, an election year, it was good that the Gedolei Eretz Yisroel made a statement.
The Tzemach Tzedek (third Lubavitcher Rebbe) famously said that it was good that the Gra fought the Chasidim, otherwise Chasidim would have become a new religion. (Oh, the irony). The Ponevezher Rav famously said that if the Neturei Karta wouldn't protest against the Ponovezher Yeshiva accepting money from the Medina, he would have hired people to protest because we need the protests to keep us in check. And today too we need the Gedolei Eretz Yisroel to fight this phenomena of musical Selichos to keep the oilem in check. If the Gedolei Eretz Yisroel wouldn't make a statement, we would need to hire people to make the statement.
Rabosai, let us accept the statement. Lets keep things in perspective. Lets make sure nothing gets out of hand, and everything is in proportion. This way we can be inspired, and remain serious too.
Ksiva v'chasima tova.
You can probably say the oppisite. In EY it makes sense to support musical selichos whereas in the US it does not. In EY where many secular people go to say selichos you want to make them as attractive as possible . I'm sure Hashem would prefer rock stars ,politicians and their followers at selichos over wherever else they would be at the time. Therefore any selichos that do not violate clear halacha should not be opposed. Whereas in the US where only frum people go to selichos there should be no lowering of standards
DeleteThe Tzemach Tzedek was the first Lubavitcher Rebbe, and the granddaddy of all Chabad branches. His youngest son stayed in Lubavitch, and his older sons spread out across Ukraine.
DeleteAccording to Wikipedia, the Tzemach Tzedek was in fact the third Lubavitcher Rebbe.
Delete4:51
DeleteAny less would cause a "purifying of the impure,while profaning the pure"
They might be tacitly begrudgingly tolerating it for the bare minimal masorati, while refusing to show any public support.
7:08am,
DeleteCorrect.In spite of Wikipedia
Don't be a fool!
Deleteit was one askan who got his Rav to oppose it, the rest just signed on.
You evidently are better at expressing yourself than they are. If they meant what you say they meant? Why didn't they say it?
ReplyDeleteThey said it in the way that the oilam in Eretz Yisroel would understand, which is who they geared the letter to.
DeleteI said it in a way that oilam in the US would understand. I'm happy you understand.
What’s that one about the boy who nebach didn’t know how to play an instrument or harmonize, he only knew how to say the words of slichos. So he said to Hashem please accept the words and tefillos I am uttering as if I served you with the most beautiful selichos musical performance..,,
ReplyDeleteUnless u r a real Brelover , u need to have your brain checked to go to Uman for RH
ReplyDeleteThe idea that 'inspired' is some kind of laudable goal is debatable.
ReplyDeleteWho decided that the only value to selichos is its inspiration? What if an uninspired selichos also has value?
Also, humans are notoriously difficult to measure, especially their emotions. It is quite possible that inspiration occurred, yet the inspired person is unaware of it. When, later during the day, he faces a trial - an opportunity arises to rip off a customer, look at or say something he shouldn't, or snap angrily at his wife about something - he prevents himself due to the morning selichos. Trust the process, selichos is a part of it.