Hashkafa with Reb Gershon Ribner
Ingesting the yitzra d'arayos through music (listening to Shlomo"s niggunim
The yitzra d'arayos of the righteous of today vs. times of old Awareness of the rishus of a Zionist and his hate for Charedim(Reading the book The Empty Wagon
Shlomo might have sinned terribly, however for honesty sake let us not forget the redifos of the old lakewooders towards Shlomo due to his kisharon and brilliance. They too have a lot of teshuvaa to do. The idea of listening to music of reshain\ Christians is a old topic in halacha.....
ReplyDeleteR Shlomo was a selfless tzaddik, who gave every penny he earned to help the needy, including purchasing hundreds of tickets to Eretz Yisrael, which he freely gave to those who he was mekarev and then sent to Or Same'ach. And of course his amazing music continues to inspire practically all of klal yisrael, and because it is so inherently great, will never lose its appeal, as it emanated from a pure neshamah, untainted by secular music. No composer since holds a candle to him.
DeleteComments about all zionists hating frum jews is a gross overgeneralization. Let's work on giving those zionists who do hate us less of a reason to do so. This is a two way street.
ReplyDeleteEvident these last months which [post]zionists are thoroughly antagonistically hopeless- irrespective of how we are
DeleteAs compared to those care enough & have potential
The mashgiach shlita rav wolfson told his talmid reb efraim glassman that any kapeida is only bechayav , al pi nigleh and nister
ReplyDeleteI'll go with our gedolie haposkim, and how they pasken will be al halacha, and ממילא true al pi nistar too.
DeleteWhy is there no issue of ingesting yitzra d'arayos through reading The Empty Wagon?
ReplyDeleteThere are many gedolim The Empty Wagon does not quote. Of the most relevance to that book would be the comment of the Chazon Ish which I think would be a more appropriate title for the book: "The Wrong Battle"
ReplyDeleteThat was in reference to a halachik question if the cherem on limudei chol applied to the new yishuv or just to yerushalaim, and the chazon ish allowed ivrit, because that isn't the battle here now. (But the cheder that he started which is currently in the chazon ish house, they taught im Yiddish)
DeleteThe Chazon Ish was giving a general moshol. He happened to have said it about a specific question.
DeleteThe 'Empty Wagon' is filled with inconsistencies, fabrications, exaggerations, and lies by omission.
ReplyDeleteHe creates associations between shitos that are non-existent. We have no Litvishe Mesorah against the concept of a State in Israel. In fact, the greatest Kana'i of our Rebbeim (Other Gedolei Yisroel disagreed with his more extreme opinions) Reb Elchanan Wasserman, writes quite clearly that if a religious Medinah would be built, there would be no greater happiness to him.
Reb Chaim Ozer did not hold the same as him in many issues, and he held that compromise could be made with the Mizrachi. The Chazon Ish was emphatically against the idea of making the fight around anything other than Torah and Mitzvos. If someone can accomplish more Torah and Mitzvos by joining up with 'the other side' he permitted it.
Basically, the book is there to corrupt our youth and have them think that the extremists are the ones with the truth, and all Gedolei Yisroel were untruthful. Adults can read that book, if they have a background of Jewish history. Don't give it to impressionable teens.
Kashe on Rabbi Ribners claim that the Bais Halevi said that non-Jews hate frum people less. How then does he explain Antiyuchus and the many like him who only persecuted frum Jews but left secular Jews alone? Was there ever a case of the opposite, someone who persecuted secular Jews but left frum people alone?
ReplyDeletePardon? Who instigated Antiyochus to crack down after several generations of sort of tolerance?
DeleteThe misyavnim.
"Was there ever a case of the opposite, someone who persecuted secular Jews but left frum people alone?"
Absolutely.
Except that frum have nobly accepted the burden to identify with the secular troublesome brethren causing themselves to thereby be included in the persecution
AnonymousJuly 30, 2023 at 6:53 PM Can you give a source and details for both of your claims?
DeleteIs that what he said? did he quote the bais haleivi? Well then the question is why is he spouting"daas Torah" when he does not know that it is not the bais haleivi but rather a maamar chazal?? The hatred of the ignorant to the learned is greater than the hatred of the nonjew to the Jew....
DeleteChazal about Sinas Am Haretzim has no relevance to what Rabbi Ribner was saying over from the Bais Halevi. The Bais Halevi was discussing non-Jewish antisemites. If the Bais Halevi really said if then he must have meant it a general sense.
DeleteFranz Josef, showed respect to the firmly religious more than to the Secular [though that is he couldn't seem to decide often enough which he preferred]
DeleteGeorge Orwell, in his brief commentary on Jews and antisemitism, implied the English preferred polish, cultured, Jews with strong Orthodox values over any other sort [the English particularly didn't like those who were wild or unruly, of any type-whether secular or religious]
Several Nazi bigwigs stated on occasion the real war was against the big secular organizations i.e. WJC, WZO, Jewish Agency; the big Jewish capitalists; the Rothschilds; the Bolshevik Jewish nexus.
And not against the little individual, decent, Jews [not religious though particularly per se].
So much so, that Goebbels had to give a speech to leading Nazis that they can't allow the local decent, individual Jews to be spared from the dragnet-they all to be collateral damage.
Re: The Muslim world
So comprehensive and obvious that no proof would be needed
Re: Tanach cf. Yehoshafat going to battle with Achav
Re: his first prior contention no discussion is needed. just read it cf Jason, Menelaus
When an old dinosaur British member of academia could once say their original backing with ardor for the Jewish return to Zion was premised on the dream that through it would come about a renewed biblical covenant with the world.Instead all that we got was the ... sad secularist state.
DeleteNot true.
DeleteEven Agudah reminds us they were against all Jews, even nonhalachic Jews and talmudjuden
DeleteAgudah has as usual their own mushy agenda.Facts are inconveniently in the way
So False.
So how come they were ready to divide & save the karaites from regular Jews?
DeleteIt's completely false to claim that the Nazis hated secular Jews more than frum Jews. If anything the oppisite was true. The reason they were willing to divide and save a group of Kariates was because they weren't genetically (or halachically) Jewish anyway.
DeleteSorry.Your false trajectory is showing.
DeleteThe nazis Claimed- in their own opinion- the inner source of the nefarious Jewish eschatological secularism that they aimed to destroy was rooted in the religious.
Especially in(in their opinion) the backward, dirty, old religious of the east
They all therefore had to be wiped out.
(There were cases of them giving previously regard to Orthodox rabbis of the west)
The manhigim after the holocaust,because of all this, fehred Klal Yisroel with a different light( which was occasionally controversial-some weren't able to come on board)
Primarily such as taking on the secular & lukewarm secular dominant organizations & systems in larger public sphere ( while still even a minority ) in a way that was never valued prior-because they had grasped the enormity of this
[without though ever,ever, stating anything of the sort outright - as admitting too much would be unhealthy]
There is not one Gadol on the record against the music styles of this generation. It was always the lower echelons, the wannabe speakers, who made a tumult about stupidities like that.
ReplyDeleteI was next to a great Talmid Chacham when someone asked him about 'Jewish rap', and he told the bochur who asked him, "Don't invent aveiros".
We have all seen the 'fight' against modern music degenerate into Lashon Hara and Sin'as Chinam, with people insulting others in public.
So, anyone who agrees with you is a 'great talmid chacham' and whoever doesn't is a wannabe!!
DeleteReb Mendel Schneerson was not matir anything for kiruv. Nothing at all. Other kiruv orgs use more heteirim than Chabad.
ReplyDeleteLol
DeleteMaybe not verbally.... How about sending 15 year old bochurim to times square.... Ma yaaseh haben vlo yechta
DeleteHe did allow his shluchim to daven in reform temples untill they develop their own shul. And quite a few other things too.
DeleteEmphasizing only the asei , inherently caused to deemphasizing (eventually ignoring) of the prohibited
ReplyDelete“A goy yimach shmo”. Is every goy a ‘yimach shmo’?
ReplyDeleteB’mechilas Kovod Harav Ribner Shlita, with much respect, I must ask the following question: The book the Empty Wagon contains some items that in my opinion are controversial. Make no mistake, the book might be 100% oisgehalten leshitas Rabeynu Yoel Ztzl. And, therefore it is certainly part of Torah Hashkafa. However, not all gedoilim were in agreement.
ReplyDeleteSpecifically with regard to the Six Day War. Was it a neis?
Many Gedoilim held yes! Absolutely!
The Satmar Rav Ztlzl held no!
Rabbi Shapiro in his book, to my recollection, fails to make mention that there was a legitimate disagreements among the greats about the Nissim that were seen. When a book that porpurts itself to be speaking as the Torah Hashkafa, is completely one sided on a particular issue, it causes some hesitation on my part.
Just my humble opinion
A book al pi the SR's shitah is not mainstream but is definitely Torah haskafah you say. Would you say the same about a book on Zionism that is completely al pi R' Soloveitchik's shitah?
DeleteHe revised pretty much everything he stated earlier & became almost conservative mainstream in his later decades.
DeleteHis modern wayward crowd have had it difficult to stomach that
We don't need Rabbi Ribner to teach us the Shita of Satmar. We have Reb Mordechai Bezalel for that.
DeleteReb Aaron Kotler's shita was nothing like Satmar in this, and to use 'The Empty Book' to show Reb Aaron's mesorah is just wrong.
Yeah, R Soloveitchik gave up his mizrachi membership? He was choizer in his claim that Hashem paskened like Yosef?
DeleteBy the late '70s pretty much largely yes
Deletecf.David Holzer's recordings,et al
I read Holzer's book and don't see that as true. There were issues that he had with Zionism, the behavior of the Israeli government and things like Hallel on Yom Hatzmuat etc. He was still a member of Mizrachi
Delete"Pretty much largely yes," translation: no.
DeleteI suspect that R' Ribner's endorsement of The Empty Wagon is part of a broader phenomenon in which rabbonim endorse things either 1) without being paying much attention to the details of what they're signing onto and just intending to endorse the broader message, or 2) being themselves unfamiliar with the details of the issue.
ReplyDeleteI have had numerous rabbonim and roshei yeshiva say one or both of these things about things they themselves personally signed on to, and I'm familiar second and third hand with many many other such instances.
So I suspect that if you confronted R' Ribner about the numerous distortions and (probably) fabrications in The Empty Wagon, he would likewise say that he is not endorsing everything in that book, only the general message that the Zionists are dangerous, and/or be under the mistaken impression that the book is generally accurate but be himself not well versed about this particular matter.
All this opposition to the empty wagon is more of a reason to read it the truth hurts.
ReplyDeleteBy that logic after reading The Empty Wagon you should read the Zionist point of view on those issues and become a Zionist. And join the losing side on most other controversies and conspiracy theories too.
DeleteEven those manhigim of yore who can accept that Israel has at present, in spite of everything, managed to become a mitigated sort of progress, would unhesitatingly state it was because of their firm negativity then, which as a deterrent stirred it to avoid veering further off the rails
ReplyDeleteIndeed it was stated then
Even the Edah Hacheridus itself does not deny that they would accomplish more for Torah if they acted like UTJ. They argue that have to do what they believe is the Ratzon Hashem and let the chips fall where they will. But they agree that more would be accomplished for Ahavas HaTorah and Harbotzas HaTorah if they acted differently
DeleteIn Palestine,we would have had everything we have now without all the endless grievances that came with Jewish or secular rule
ReplyDeleteeg The Brits could punish the Arabs & get away with it
Yes, Palestine flourished under the Mandate.
There were difficulties then.
Similar or less than has been since
But that wasn't good enough for the nationalists.
Just like Tzidkiyahu or the biryonim
What ruined it was the pushy communist chauvinism & nationalist mix
So the British went sort of south.Besides,the world was getting worse because of those nazis. That the JA made a deal with.
There were several Jews in big cabinet jobs in Westminister who could have stopped the changes,had they desired.
Though the creation of the state may according to some then have granted to be a neis.
That was not due nevertheless in any way to the zionist credit.
Rather can be termed-in spite of.
It was Pachas K'mayim
Without the zionist state it probably would have been better circumstances
R' Shlomo's music represents authentic yiddishe feeling, filled with ga'aguim toward HaKadosh Baruch Hu, simchah, inner reflection, etc. He was a man of prodigous greatness both in composing, and in his mehalach hamachshavah in general (nigleh, chassidus, etc.). Besides the thousands of baalei teshuvah he made, some of whom live here in Lakewood, he has tremendous zechus of composing some of the most soul-stirring niggunim that impel yidden to become closer to God: they are constant favorites during davening, at simchos, by lamdanim working on a difficult sugya, kumzitzin being me'orer people spiritually, and so on. R' Moshe zatzal has a teshuvah and he writes that there's nothing wrong with listening to his music; on the contrary, there's much to gain from it spiritally. He was influenced musically by the Modzitzer Rebbe, the Bobover Rebbe, among others. Let's not kid ourselves: his songs are a major part of out lives, especially those musically inclined. As far as the liberties he took to achieve his kiruv objectives, that's bein adam lamakom and none of our business.
ReplyDeleteEverything was sort of nice till the last sentence.
DeleteArvus which means we are connected for good bein Adam l'makom. & for bad.
Especially so for someone with influence.
What you are spouting would be a Terrible concept for the the youth
Furthermore,
Every criminal in our past likely could have had lots of positive tied in.
So were our ancestors wrong ?Should they all have been given a free pass rather than condemned?
Your reply makes no sense to me. R Shlomo did not influence anybody negatively, and now that he's no longer among the living, it's certainly improper to judge his bein adam lamakom, especially given that he regretted many things at the end of his life. Parenthetically, many who condemned him were jealous of his immense talent and success. Before he condemn him, let's remember that he died penniless, having selflessly given away every last penny to tzedakah -- and he earned many millions in his life.
ReplyDeleteAnd I was not "spouting" anything. Apparently, that's the disrespectful term you use for anyone who disagrees with you. It's reprehensible
ReplyDeleteWhich came first:your excuses or the general slide & lack these days of disgust for that lifestyle ?
ReplyDeleteI would reply to you if what you wrote made any sense. You need to take a beginner's course in English.
ReplyDeleteToo subtle for you,eh
DeleteThat's not really a valid response to proper criticism. Show your comments to a native English speaker, and they'll easily show you the problems in your syntax and grammar.
Delete