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Thursday, February 27, 2020
Letter: Talmidim Of Harav Aharon Kotler Zatzal against Joining the World Zionist Organization
Rav Shmuel was from Rav Aharons biggest talmidim and he is not on this letter. Baruch hashem we have gedolim and they can disagree on issues and we can choose who to follow.
Biggest talmidim? How so? Is he the one that printed his seforim from his notes? Did he spend longer at shiur, or understand it better than anyone else?
This whole issue is nonsense. A person who was a member of BMG in the days of Reb Aaron does not represent Reb Aaron any more than he represents Yankel Weisberg or Yekusiel Weinstein. Virtually none of these chosmim are talmidim, and neither is Reb Shmuel. Each is expressing his own opinion
I can't shake the feeling that this is all wannabe kannaus on the part of many Americans. The gedolim in Eretz Yisrael have overwhelmingly said it's a mitzva to vote in Israeli elections, but we like to pretend that we would be moiser nefesh to avoid participating in anything to do with Zionism, so we act like Satmar to make ourselves seem big.
I'm not arguing on this but I question how they can say there is no difference between today and when RAK was alive
When RAK was alive
(1)This actually was a Zionist election between people who believed in Zionism. Today it is just a question of control and influence in Erertz Yisroel. Some of the secular parties running are vitriolically ANTI Zionist.
(2)The Reform and Conservative movements weren't running on a open platform of fighting Torah in Eretz Yisroel and spending WZO money to spread their influence there. Which is what that they are running on today.
(3)The frum community in the US was so small that even if they did vote they could have accomplished nothing. Maybe they could have gotten one or two people in. Today the frum community is in the position to have major influence in Eretz Yisroel by electing frum parties and candidates. But if they don't the anti Torah parties will have that instead. (and then everyone who could have prevented it will blame the "zionists")
Theodore Herzl founded the wzo do you think the gedolim of previous generations did not realize whst is at stake. You make it sound like the reform just showed up and it's a new milchama
Who founded the current modern day Israel??! You thinmk Rav Shach zt'l and other gedoplim didn't know that and yet they still held vote in elections and have charidi politicians in the Knesset...
The most obvious thing that changed is the official platform of the WZO changed in 2004 and is more nuanced. The platform is below:
Zionism, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, brought about the establishment of the State of Israel, and views a Jewish, Zionist, democratic and secure State of Israel to be the expression of the common responsibility of the Jewish people for its continuity and future.
I THINK IT IS PRETTY WIDESPREAD TO FEEL THAT THE CONTINUED EXISTENCE OF A DEMOCRATIC, ZIONIST STATE IS A COMMON ACHRAYUS OF ALL YIDDEN AT THIS POINT EVEN IF WE BELIEVE THE GEULAH WILL REPLACE THE STATE. UNTIL THE GEULAH WE DONT WANT THE STATE TO DISAPPEAR.
The Jerusalem Program's foundations of Zionism are:
1) The unity of the Jewish people, its bond to its historic homeland Eretz Yisrael, and the centrality of the State of Israel and Jerusalem, its capital, in the life of the nation;
YES, ERETZ YISRAEL and EVEN THE STATE PLAY A CENTRAL ROLE IN OUR LIVES.
2) Aliyah to Israel from all countries and the effective integration of all immigrants into Israeli society.
MACHLOKES RISHONIM AS TO WHETHER A MITZVAH D'ORAYSA, BUT NOT A BAD THING EVEN IF NOT A MITZVAH.
3) Strengthening Israel as a Jewish, Zionist and democratic state and shaping it as an exemplary society with a unique moral and spiritual character, marked by mutual respect for the multi-faceted Jewish people, rooted in the vision of the prophets, striving for peace and contributing to the betterment of the world.
THIS ONE IS MORE COMPLICATED, SO ASK DAAS TORAH. THE OLD PLATFORM SPECIFICALLY REFERENCED THE ETHICS OF THE PROPHETS. THIS ONE JUST SAYS THE VISION OF THE PROPHETS WHICH TO US MAAMINIM MEANS TORAH. ALSO, "MULTI_FACETED" COULD MEAN MANY THINGS, BUT DOES NOT EXPRESSLY REFERENCE OTHER DENOMINATIONS.
4) Ensuring the future and the distinctiveness of the Jewish people by furthering Jewish, Hebrew and Zionist education, fostering spiritual and cultural values and teaching Hebrew as the national language;
THIS IS THE BIGGEST QUESTION MARK. ASK YOUR DAAS TORAH WHETHER STRENGTHENING THE LEARNING OF HEBREW LANGUAGE AND SUPPORT FOR THE MEDINA ARE PERMITTED TO STRENGTHEN THE FUTURE OF KLAL YISRAEL AND KEEP FREI YIDDEN CONNECTED WITH THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF KIRUV L'TORAH. AISH HATORAH DEFINITELY THINKS SO AND IS CURRENTLY BOOMING AS A RESULT, BUT DEFINITELY A QUESTION FOR DAAS TORAH.
5) Nurturing mutual Jewish responsibility, defending the rights of Jews as individuals and as a nation, representing the national Zionist interests of the Jewish people, and struggling against all manifestations of anti-Semitism;
OK
6) Settling the country as an expression of practical Zionism.
Daas Tora & retzon hasem doesn't change. The only thing that changed is your belief that Hashem can't manage things on his own and he needs you to help him by doing wrong things. Don't Hashem has this covered he doesn't need your help. All he wants you to do is what's right
Also in #3 the reference to a unique "spiritual" character is VERY different from before, since in the past nothing in the platform referenced ruchniyus AT ALL.
Please post the Chumash shiur of Rav Oren Reich being מוחה on the concept that Balei Batim signing against the Sar HaTorah Maran HaGrach Kanievsky who was behind the Psak of Rav Shmuel Kamnetzky.
But as the Chazon Ish put it (in relation to the initial vehement opposition of Gedoley Torah to speaking modern Ivrit) when you do something because a psak given years when the situation was different you are like a general fighting the battles pf a war that was long since over.
I can think of MANY other issues that Gedoley Torah at one point unanimously took one position with regard to (not) dealing with the pre and post Israeli government Zionists but then changed it in light of the fact they were dealing with a different situation.
How come you are not posting the update that Rav Chaim shlita and Rav Edelstein shlita that they both say to vote? Be an open and fair blogger dont pick your sides and if you do then just say it. Post the news and information so all can know the actual news.
with all do respect to all the commentators above who think they are entitled to mix in its almost comical to watch a bunch of random people shtelling da'os as if they were da'as torah , we have gedolim and if they don't agree how can we dare think we are entitled to an opinion.
Rav Shmuel was from Rav Aharons biggest talmidim and he is not on this letter.
ReplyDeleteBaruch hashem we have gedolim and they can disagree on issues and we can choose who to follow.
Rav Shmuel did not publicize his opinion in a signed letter
DeleteBiggest talmidim? How so? Is he the one that printed his seforim from his notes? Did he spend longer at shiur, or understand it better than anyone else?
DeleteThis whole issue is nonsense. A person who was a member of BMG in the days of Reb Aaron does not represent Reb Aaron any more than he represents Yankel Weisberg or Yekusiel Weinstein. Virtually none of these chosmim are talmidim, and neither is Reb Shmuel. Each is expressing his own opinion
R Shmuel learned by Ra Ahron when he was older was never known as a major talmud. That doesn't negate his gadlus but let's keep our facts straight
DeleteWhole all prestigious names many of them were 10 years old when Rwb Ahron passed away.
ReplyDeleteI can't shake the feeling that this is all wannabe kannaus on the part of many Americans. The gedolim in Eretz Yisrael have overwhelmingly said it's a mitzva to vote in Israeli elections, but we like to pretend that we would be moiser nefesh to avoid participating in anything to do with Zionism, so we act like Satmar to make ourselves seem big.
ReplyDeleteWhich gedolim in Eretz Yisroel haven't heard one name besides for Rabbis Berkowitz & Weiss who are choshuve yidden
DeleteREB MOSHE H HIRSH
ReplyDeleteREB MAYER STERN
REB Y SHNEIDMAN?????????
R Moshe hillel Hirsch said not to vote.
DeleteI'm not arguing on this but I question how they can say there is no difference between today and when RAK was alive
ReplyDeleteWhen RAK was alive
(1)This actually was a Zionist election between people who believed in Zionism. Today it is just a question of control and influence in Erertz Yisroel. Some of the secular parties running are vitriolically ANTI Zionist.
(2)The Reform and Conservative movements weren't running on a open platform of fighting Torah in Eretz Yisroel and spending WZO money to spread their influence there. Which is what that they are running on today.
(3)The frum community in the US was so small that even if they did vote they could have accomplished nothing. Maybe they could have gotten one or two people in. Today the frum community is in the position to have major influence in Eretz Yisroel by electing frum parties and candidates. But if they don't the anti Torah parties will have that instead. (and then everyone who could have prevented it will blame the "zionists")
Theodore Herzl founded the wzo do you think the gedolim of previous generations did not realize whst is at stake.
DeleteYou make it sound like the reform just showed up and it's a new milchama
Who founded the current modern day Israel??! You thinmk Rav Shach zt'l and other gedoplim didn't know that and yet they still held vote in elections and have charidi politicians in the Knesset...
DeleteActually it is one.
DeleteWhen RAK was alive the Reform movement did not formally participate in this election at all. Let alone as a open effort to fight Torah.
Among the other differences between now and then that I mentioned.
Rav Aron Zt'l had a totally different mehalech halimud then what goes on now in BMG...
ReplyDeleteHow come that changed? Why is that ok?
The most obvious thing that changed is the official platform of the WZO changed in 2004 and is more nuanced. The platform is below:
ReplyDeleteZionism, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, brought about the establishment of the State of Israel, and views a Jewish, Zionist, democratic and secure State of Israel to be the expression of the common responsibility of the Jewish people for its continuity and future.
I THINK IT IS PRETTY WIDESPREAD TO FEEL THAT THE CONTINUED EXISTENCE OF A DEMOCRATIC, ZIONIST STATE IS A COMMON ACHRAYUS OF ALL YIDDEN AT THIS POINT EVEN IF WE BELIEVE THE GEULAH WILL REPLACE THE STATE. UNTIL THE GEULAH WE DONT WANT THE STATE TO DISAPPEAR.
The Jerusalem Program's foundations of Zionism are:
1) The unity of the Jewish people, its bond to its historic homeland Eretz Yisrael, and the centrality of the State of Israel and Jerusalem, its capital, in the life of the nation;
YES, ERETZ YISRAEL and EVEN THE STATE PLAY A CENTRAL ROLE IN OUR LIVES.
2) Aliyah to Israel from all countries and the effective integration of all immigrants into Israeli society.
MACHLOKES RISHONIM AS TO WHETHER A MITZVAH D'ORAYSA, BUT NOT A BAD THING EVEN IF NOT A MITZVAH.
3) Strengthening Israel as a Jewish, Zionist and democratic state and shaping it as an exemplary society with a unique moral and spiritual character, marked by mutual respect for the multi-faceted Jewish people, rooted in the vision of the prophets, striving for peace and contributing to the betterment of the world.
THIS ONE IS MORE COMPLICATED, SO ASK DAAS TORAH. THE OLD PLATFORM SPECIFICALLY REFERENCED THE ETHICS OF THE PROPHETS. THIS ONE JUST SAYS THE VISION OF THE PROPHETS WHICH TO US MAAMINIM MEANS TORAH. ALSO, "MULTI_FACETED" COULD MEAN MANY THINGS, BUT DOES NOT EXPRESSLY REFERENCE OTHER DENOMINATIONS.
4) Ensuring the future and the distinctiveness of the Jewish people by furthering Jewish, Hebrew and Zionist education, fostering spiritual and cultural values and teaching Hebrew as the national language;
THIS IS THE BIGGEST QUESTION MARK. ASK YOUR DAAS TORAH WHETHER STRENGTHENING THE LEARNING OF HEBREW LANGUAGE AND SUPPORT FOR THE MEDINA ARE PERMITTED TO STRENGTHEN THE FUTURE OF KLAL YISRAEL AND KEEP FREI YIDDEN CONNECTED WITH THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF KIRUV L'TORAH. AISH HATORAH DEFINITELY THINKS SO AND IS CURRENTLY BOOMING AS A RESULT, BUT DEFINITELY A QUESTION FOR DAAS TORAH.
5) Nurturing mutual Jewish responsibility, defending the rights of Jews as individuals and as a nation, representing the national Zionist interests of the Jewish people, and struggling against all manifestations of anti-Semitism;
OK
6) Settling the country as an expression of practical Zionism.
OK
Daas Tora & retzon hasem doesn't change. The only thing that changed is your belief that Hashem can't manage things on his own and he needs you to help him by doing wrong things.
DeleteDon't Hashem has this covered he doesn't need your help. All he wants you to do is what's right
Also in #3 the reference to a unique "spiritual" character is VERY different from before, since in the past nothing in the platform referenced ruchniyus AT ALL.
ReplyDeletePlease post the Chumash shiur of Rav Oren Reich being מוחה on the concept that Balei Batim signing against the Sar HaTorah Maran HaGrach Kanievsky who was behind the Psak of Rav Shmuel Kamnetzky.
ReplyDeleteDaas Tora & retzon hasem doesn't change.
ReplyDeleteBut as the Chazon Ish put it (in relation to the initial vehement opposition of Gedoley Torah to speaking modern Ivrit) when you do something because a psak given years when the situation was different you are like a general fighting the battles pf a war that was long since over.
I can think of MANY other issues that Gedoley Torah at one point unanimously took one position with regard to (not) dealing with the pre and post Israeli government Zionists but then changed it in light of the fact they were dealing with a different situation.
How come you are not posting the update that Rav Chaim shlita and Rav Edelstein shlita that they both say to vote? Be an open and fair blogger dont pick your sides and if you do then just say it. Post the news and information so all can know the actual news.
ReplyDeletewith all do respect to all the commentators above who think they are entitled to mix in its almost comical to watch a bunch of random people shtelling da'os as if they were da'as torah , we have gedolim and if they don't agree how can we dare think we are entitled to an opinion.
ReplyDeletewhy are people mixing in to the machloksim of gedolim, who are they next to the gedolim to think they could shtell their own two sense.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete