Some have a minhag to eat Matza on Pesach Sheini it is brought down in the siddur of the Yaavetz (Rav Yaakov Emden) that it was revealed to him from the heavens that the kedusha of pesach and matzah lasts until pesach sheni because when they went out from Mitzrayim they ate the matzos that they came out with until the 15 of iyar.
Some dont say tachnun.
Nitai Gavriel (Pesach Vol 3 Chapter 57) brings several Pesach Sheni customs. Among them:
To increase in Simcha (source: the Chida)
To read the parsha of Pesach Sheni and learn its Halachos (source: The Shalo).
To read the Parsha of the Nesi'im (source: The Shalo).
To visit the grave of Rabbi Meir Baal HaNeis in Teveria
(this is a sefardi custom sourced from many places). Some object to the festive nature of this practice.
To visit the grave of Rabbi Yehuda Bar Illoi (a custom of residents of Tzefas).
He also mentions in a footnote that one of the objections Misnagdim had to the practices of Chassidim was making a meal on Pesach Sheni even if it was one of the days of בה"ב.
בשו"ת בנין ציון ח"א ס"ל לרבינו הערוך לנר כתב וז"ל בליל זמן אכילת פסח שני למען קיים כל העוסק וכו' ע"ש
ReplyDeletebtw did anyone double check the סידור יעבץ if that part is actually from him? it's well known that it's full of stuff the later poylishe printer added in.
ReplyDeletehere is the objections of the "Misnagdim" to those who didn't fast and used the excuse that it's paysach shainee,
בקונטרס זמיר עריצים וחרבות צורים אשר נדפס ע"פ המורים לגעלות מעשי הרשעים וגם הובא בסוד ישרים בהקדמת הגאון זכרון יוסף [ומזכירו החת"ס כמ"פ] וז"ל (במכתב ג' ד"ה ומה עצמו ראשיהם), ובתענית שני וחמשי ושני, יאמר הגבור חלש אני, וביום הצום סר כוחי ואוני, ומה גם היום פסח שני, שהיו אוכלים בו לחם עוני, כל יודעי דת שפתי מרבץ, אומרים לפס"ח חטאת רובץ, אסור לאדם לענות בו נפשו דמו בראשו וכו', עכ"ל .
Need a drop of clarity, IS this is Zichron Yosef or is Sod Yesharim a seperate sefer.
DeleteWas thinking the same. Probably not actually from the Yaavetz. There is no basis in Halacha for this. The Chofetz Chaim didn’t do it. Same goes for the Chazon Ish
DeleteLOOK UP THE הקדמה OF THE זכרון יוסף, YOU WON'T REGRET IT!
DeleteBTW THE חת"ס WRITES SOMEWHERE כמה נצטערו רבותי ע"ז עי' הקדמת זכרון יוסף
LOOK UP THE הקדמה OF THE זכרון יוסף, YOU WON'T REGRET IT!
DeleteBTW THE חת"ס WRITES SOMEWHERE כמה נצטערו רבותי ע"ז עי' הקדמת זכרון יוסף
Just double checked, it is printed in the original Siddur Yaabetz Shaar Shomayim\Amudei Shomayim witch he printed at his own print-house. See Vol. 2 page 58b Shaar Hayesod by the sefiras ha'omer of today.
DeleteIt says no such thing in the original R' Yaakov Emdin Siddur. All it says is that חמץ ומצה עמו בבית which means that one is allowed to have chometz in his pocession while shechting the Pesach Sheni. The לזמר עריצים is a very good mekor that it is a very old chassidishe minhag.
DeleteSo the litvaks are ok with not fasting Bahab, but have a problem if a chusid wants to eat matzo on pesach sheini that falls on Friday.
ReplyDeletethe safer was not from the litvak's. it was printed by the bais din of the famous polish city of brod in 1772,
Deletethe zichron yosef who quotes it was the rebbe of most of the first hungarian rabbonim (ex the chasam sofer of frankfurt) and also the mahra"m benet of nikolsburg
the zichron yosef was rosh yeshiva of the venerable yeshiva of furth germany, not hungarian. established back in the time of the reshonim, the yeshiva in his time was a mid sized german yeshiva with 600 older talmidim. not as big as the great yeshivos of frankfurt, altona, etc. the derech and the sayder halimud was much the same as in our yeshivos today
DeleteWhat was the derech and seder limud of the yeshiva?
DeleteHey Mike, great comments, thanks!
DeleteBTW LOVE your chicken!
דרך הלימוד היה כמו בהישיבות הקדושות של היום, וגם לא היו לומדים שם רק כמה דפים בזמן. ומהאי טעמא הוא שאנו לומדים מספריהם ולא מספרים שנכתבו בשאר המקומות מאותם שנים [אולי יש יוצאי מן הכלל שאיני זוכר כעת אבל כן הוא בדרך כלל] כמו למשל רע"א, נתיבות, ערוך לנר, חת"ס, הפלאה, פני יהושע, נודע ביהודה, יעב"ץ, תומים וכו' וכו'. ואפילו רבינו הגר"א גלה למקום תורה ולמד ט"ו שנים באשכנז בישיבות האמבורג אלטונא, וליסא, וברלין, (ואולי בעוד כמה ישיבות רק שאיני זוכר כעת) מהיותו כבן כ' עד בן ל"ה שנים, והיה פרסומו בעולם התורה מאז כמו שמפורש באגרת רבי יהונתן אייבשיץ זצ"ל אליו משנת תקט"ו, והקצות ג"כ למד בישיבת איטינגען כמבואר בההסכמה לספרו מרבו רבי יעקב קאצינעלבוגין שהיה אב"ד וראש ישיבה שם באטינגן שהוא עיר סמוך לפיורדא
Deleteואכמ"ל אבל הרוצה לדעת אפס קצהו תראה בחיבור נפלא שנכתב בלע"ז (היברו) שנקרא ישיבה הרמה דפיודרא ג' חלקים מאת הרב בנימין האמבורגר שליט"א, שמלבד עיקר המקורות נתייסד ג"כ על יותר ממיליו"ן דפים מכתבתי הממשלה
Nice but exaggerated.
DeleteA yekke
who doesn't fast Bahab?
ReplyDeleteI didn’t know that people who use the treifene internet are such Talmidei Chachomim.
ReplyDeleteimage blockers and limited access or they are
Deletejudaic
doctoral students only
We don't say Tachnun on the 14th (they shechted pesach Shainy then) AND the 15th (they ate the pesach shainy then - after Tzais as on the 15th og Nissan).
ReplyDeleteAs far as "hoid" goes, we are machmir and only omit Tachnun on Hiod Sheh'be' Hoid - AKA Lag Baomer. :)
Btw the יעבץ was before the amerikane Yankee baalei tsuva, Yesivise Litvak Balei Gaave were born. P.s I am not referring to those who beemes its torasom umnosom, I am referring to the tzvuim who are on the internet but preach the chasidim or hungarians were mechadesh ...!
ReplyDeleteSuch hate!! I don't think the yaavetz, or the Yankee baalei tshuva, or the Yeshivish Livaks, or the chasidim or the Hungarians would approve. There is a learned discussion going on about a subject that has many sides to it. Shame on you for bringing in such horrible negativity!
DeleteZohar says the kedusha of pesach lasts till pesach sheni and then it stays another 7 days afterwards because of pesach sheni.
ReplyDeleteBottom line, virtually every single הנהגה done by Chasidim is an element of חידוש, which is exactly what the גדולי האחרונים were against — חתם סופר נודע ביהודה ועוד ועוד, since ultimately they are בני אשכנז הנוהגים כדעת הרמ״א, and for this reason - amongst many others, they were anti such people. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a שקרן.
ReplyDeleteNow with regard to the Gaon, his התנגדות was primarily against חסידות חב״ד since that was the prevalent Chasidus in Russia/Lita. כך העיד מרן הגרא״מ שך מפי הח״ח זצ״ל. But his התנגדות wasn’t so much focused on שינוי מנהג אבותינו as much as it was about השקפה more generally, which can be seen clearly in ספר הקדוש נפש החיים vs. ספר תניא.
It is quite ironic - or perhaps a sad commentary, that the very Gedolim who Chassidim claim to be following their Mesorah, — such as the Chasam Sofer, Noda B’Yehuda, Hafla’a, Yaavetz etc., all vehemently opposed their way of life as is well known. The Chasam Sofer and Noda Beyehuda write about it explicitly as is well known. They like to quote the Chasam Sofer חדש אסור מן התורה, yet they were מחדש literally everything they do.
With that said, the only ones with the TRUE, UNCHANGED MESORAH, עכ״פ מבני אשכנז, are the Bnei Torah — בני הישיבות שיחיו, who have a direct Mesorah from their Rabbeim to Reb Chaim Volozhiner and in turn the Vilna Gaon ולמעלה בקודש. The same can be said about some of the German Kehillos. But unfortunately this does not hold true about Chasidic Kehilos, who claim to have the “best” Mesorah.
I challenge anyone to refute this.
Most of the customes of yeshiva's are based on the valley mustard not minhagei hagra not in derech halimud not in kiyum hamitzvos........ to claim that the mesora of Yeshiva goes back 200 years is a complete farce which you can pull the wool over those who are not in the know. What we have left today is not even how most of the yeshivos had mesorah or hashkofo for example slabodka or telz volozhin grodno or radin it is primarily Mir from r yeruchoms era. At the very best approximately 80 years old.
DeleteI wholeheartedly agree with all you wrote, except the last paragraph
ReplyDeleteWhile it's undoubtedly true that the German Kehillos have the mesorah, the same can not be said about minhug Hayeshivos.
To state that there is a mesorah to the gaon through Rav Chaim Veloshener is incorrect, not in derech halemud, in which we mostly follow the derech of the German Yeshivos of old, and certainly not in minhugai tefilloh. The Gaon followed nusach Ashkenaz (not nusach Poland).
His personal shito of not saying piyutim in the middle of davining is against all minhugim and mesorahs of Europe, and actually the entire world if you were to go back to the times of Chazal.
So if you don't say, for example, Zulos this coming Shabbos, you are not following any Ashkenazi mesorah whatsoever, not Ashkenaz, Polin, Dutch, French, LITA, Hungary, etc etc. you can at best claim to follow some great godol of recent times, namely the gr"a, but you are unquestionably breaking with our unbroken tradition of thousands of years.
"not in derech halemud, in which we mostly follow the derech of the German Yeshivos of old'
DeleteWhat are you Mean? They had R' Chaim's derech halimud?
"The Gaon followed nusach Ashkenaz (not nusach Poland)"
Where do you get that from. I don't think that's what it says in סידור איזור אליהו.
" They had R' Chaim's derech halimud?"
Deletealthough that wasn't my main point, the answer is YES.
I have a copy of a manuscript written in the very beginning of the 5500's. There is one piece there, a few pages long, that whenever I show it to anyone, they tend to attribute it to a talmid of Rav Boruch Ber zt"l. that the rest of the manuscript is not written in such a fashion only proves my point that even though they may have spoken like Rav Chaim they wrote the way they wrote.
That is the sole reason that all the seforim we learn that are from the tekufa of 5450 - 5600 are almost exclusively from the big old yeshivos of Ashkenaz.
with regards to your other Q. please look there again, and you'll see i'm correct
"Bottom line, virtually every single הנהגה done by Chasidim is an element of חידוש"
ReplyDeleteBottom line of what?
Every single hanhaga? Like ,תקיעת שופר, ספירת העומר, אכילת מצה תשליך? You must mean what Chasiddim were mechadesh (usually based on Arizal). Well sounds like a tautology "Every Hanhaga that chassidim were mechadesh is a chiddush". No doubt about that. No one says otherwise.
"Now with regard to the Gaon, his התנגדות was primarily against חסידות חב״ד"
The Gaon signed against the Chassidim in תקל"ב Way before Chabad was founded.
We know that the Haflaah spent time by the Mezricher Magid, and he very much admired his Brother Reb Shmelke of Niklusberg. Whether he could be described as a chassid is a big debate, but what's your proof that he was a misnaged?
When the Hungarian Yidden talk about חדש אסור מן התורה they're mainly referring to modernity. They are aware that the Chasam Sofer wasn't Chassidish.
"With that said, the only ones with the TRUE, UNCHANGED MESORAH, עכ״פ מבני אשכנז, are the Bnei Torah — בני הישיבות שיחיו"
What a statement? I'm not convinced that yeshivaleit are that much closer to mesores ashkenaz than "Chassidim". (Do they even think so?) Chassidim say יוצרות, In yeshivos they don't. Chassidim sing during Davening like the old minhag. In chernobyl and I think Sanz they blow the tekia like the Yekkes. Some are makri Shevarim terua separately like the old minhag. The place where the Amud is placed in Shul is like old ashkenaz and the lists goes on. Did you know that Ashkenazim say Shir Hamaalos before Maariv?! In general, klal Yisroel underwent a change that many "chassidim" did not, making them IMHO culturally and in outlook more similar to Eastern European Jews of old. See https://traditiononline.org/rupture-and-reconstruction/. Very important:)
Anyway, enjoy your Matza/have an easy fast.
"We know that the Haflaah spent time by the Mezricher Magid"
Deletethere is not one iota of truth in that statement, and it is simply ludicrous to even argue about such a silly lie.
It is simply a case of הרוצה לשקר ירחיק עדיו. Since they would not dare lie that any godol of their area had any connection to them, so they had to choose a godol from the other end of the earth. the same goes for his brother too.
also, please note, no כתידים say יוצרות. At best, they say some קרובות.
Deletethey, and the reform, were actually the ones who stopped to say them כמבואר בשו"ת חת"ס
as regards signing, you are somewhat right, however, their songs are not the real ones, they sign mostly sad songs, (in minor not major) and there is a lot left to desire as the songs don't fit the with the words at all
the Yekkes of course don't have those issues, and for the most part they are singing the original nigunim of the mechabrim themselves. many of their tunes are already mentioned in the reshonim
Not sure how you know that the sons of Baal Hatanya were lying in their Hakdama to Shulchan Aruch. (How are you more נאמן?)
DeleteOk not yotzros, keroivois.
their songs are not the real ones
If only Yekkes are real people than only their songs are real. Maybe , not sure.
It is simply a case of הרוצה לשקר ירחיק עדיו. Since they would not dare lie that any godol of their area had any connection to them, so they had to choose a godol from the other end of the earth. the same goes for his brother too.
DeleteThey weren't from the other end of the earth. They were from Galicia and only later did they become Rabbanim in Germany.
The Rebbe Reb Shmelka was a full fledged Chosid. החוזה מלובלין והמגיד מקוזניץ ור' משה ליב מסאסוב כולם למדו אצלו. Everyone knows this.
that's true, his brother, too, had absolutely nothing at all to do with any of it at any level.
Deleteanything implying that any one of them did have, is nothing but a gross lie!
By the time the lie was invented, they had both moved long, long ago off the face of the Russian earth
The years too don't tally for those that know, but it's too ridiculous to have to start to disprove
It's as ridiculous as claiming that the Baal Hatanya wasn't really chassidish.
DeleteNuch a rediscoverer of fire.
ReplyDeleteThe gist of R & R was that charedi/right wing are in essence also modern orthodox, except in terms of DT- another red herring.
[The modern Orthodox use that contention whenever it serves them, though they generally can't deign to allow that at all- it defeats their raison d'etre].
Since that is the case, as your source is the Doc from R& R,then not much can be treated of value.
By the way there were many refutations of significant segments, or even most, of R&R- including relatively recently interestingly his own !
I wasn't referring to the article as an authority. I just happen to agree with his main point that Klal yisroel (at least the non Chassiddishe world) has to a large degree undergone a shift of what he terms mimicking judaism to textual judaism. I think that in williamsburg for example there has not been much of a change. This mimicking/texual judaism dichotomy surfaces very often when there is a encounter between Hungarian Chassidim and Yeshivaleit.
ReplyDeletemimetic
Delete