Monday, August 10, 2020

The Folly of the Frum Never Trumpers

Yated Ne'eman The Folly of the Frum Never Trumpers

This article is printed in the current issue if Yated.
By Rabbi Avrohom Birnbaum - Aug 5, 2020

Never Trumpers, Conservatives who would rather have anyone running the country – even the strong progressive wing of the party led by the likes of AOC – other than President Trump, are primarily longtime Conservative pundits. Some are has-beens, who are pining after their glory days. Some are rigid baalei shitah who cannot tolerate veering from the script with which they define Conservatism. President Trump is a person not bound to ideology, but rather to pragmatism. He is also a tremendous disrupter of the old order. That irks them to no end.



In addition, the president can be uncouth, abrasive, self-contradictory, and untruthful. He is rude on Twitter. Those things really bother the elegant souls of these classic Conservatives and is so repulsive to them to the point that they are willing to vote for anyone except for him – even if it means bringing AOC and the Bernie Sanders wing of the party into the mainstream.

Now, there is a similar phenomenon in the frum world. Although they are a small minority, the frum world has their wing of vocal Never Trumpers who, believe it or not, try to cloak their enmity for the president in nothing less than Torah values.

Before I address what I think is the cardinal, dangerous mistake that they are making, especially when they try to encourage others to think like them, let me make an admission. I did not vote for President Trump in the last election. No, I didn’t chas v’shalom vote for Mrs. Clinton. She and what she stands for were and are so repugnant that I could never pull the lever for her even if I had a clothespin on my nose.

I submitted a write-in vote for a conservative who I felt more represented my values than Mr. Trump. I felt that Trump wasn’t a role model, that his personal life and middos were things that I simply couldn’t vote for.

I still don’t think he is a role model, and I still don’t think that the way he conducts himself in his personal life is something I want to emulate or want anyone in my community to emulate. That said, this time, I will pull the level for him in a heartbeat, and I think, with four years of hindsight behind us, the most charitable thing I can say about any frum Jew who doesn’t is that he is a fool.

Why did I change? I got a better understanding of what today’s Democrat Party stands for, and I realized that despite the president’s problematic bedside manners, most of his policies are far better for the future of frum life in this country and for the preservation of the lives of Jews in Eretz Yisroel and elsewhere.

Two Reasons

When I speak to or see the writings of frum Never Trumpers, I am flabbergasted by their lack of understanding or the willful blind eye that they show to the current political climate in which we reside.

The truth, after all the hyperbole, is that I think we can summarize the bottom line of their arguments as follows:

1) The president is the antithesis of a role model for Torah values, middos tovos and the like ,and he should not be idolized under any circumstance.

2) It is never good for Yidden in golus to identify with one particular political party or camp. We need the goodwill of both parties.

Let us address the first point. I would be surprised if there is even one person with a modicum of seichel who thinks that the president’s personal life or the insulting way that he tweets or talks is anything to emulate. The fact that Never Trumpers use that argument speaks more for their elitism and their low approval of the Jewish masses. It would appear that they deem the great, “unwashed,” frum masses insufficiently enlightened to be able to make the distinction between the man and his polices. Also, for some reason, they seem to always focus on the president as the one responsible for bringing down the level of discourse in the country rather than the crazed, venomous and hate-filled reaction to him and his policies.

The second argument presented by the frum Never Trumpers has more merit than the first. Indeed, it is never good for Jews to be in one political camp. Certainly not Orthodox Jews. In golus, we need the goodwill of both political parties. The pendulum of politics swings, and when the Democrats are in power, and they perceive that most Orthodox Jews support the other party, we will lose influence.

That is a very valid point.

The only thing they forgot is that we already lost their support. Big time. Or perhaps, as the current occupant of the White House would say, “Bigly.”

Of “Truths” and Squeamishness

Sometimes, I wonder what it will take to get these high-browed purveyors of “truth” to recognize what is happening. Are they waiting for the “woke” culture to come and shut down our shuls and yeshivos because they are discriminatory and just plain “phobic” about everything? Do they not realize that today’s Democrat Party is one that is in many ways hostile to religion or at best very unsympathetic to religion, especially when it clashes with the “religion” of Progressivism?

Does the squeamishness of the frum Never Trumpers regarding the bedside manners of the current occupant of the White House cause them to sacrifice the real Jewish values of our religion, our ability to practice and teach Yiddishkeit in our schools, and daven in our shuls without significant government interference?

Does their squeamishness cause them to join the Peter Beinart wing of the party that will not be satisfied until the occupants of the Jewish state commit willful suicide by just letting the bloodthirsty Palestinians and their enablers to finally realize their dreams of pushing the Jews into the sea?

Just think for a second what kind of limitations President Obama put on the Jewish state and their ability to respond to provocations from Iran and other evil actors in the rough neighborhood of the Middle East and beyond. Just think about what President Obama did to the Jewish state in the UN before he left office. It must be said that Obama’s shitos back when he was president look tame compared to the Democrat Party of today.

Is the blood of our brothers and sisters really that cheap that frum Never Trumpers seem to be willing to sacrifice real policy changes for the better because this politician talks more abrasively than the other?

While we are at it, do the Never Trumpers think that letting the intelligence agencies conduct themselves in the vaunted tradition of the Bolsheviks by subverting the will of the voting public to conform with their ideals is good for the country? I think there is enough evidence out there even for the skeptics to realize that there were some very dirty, underhanded tricks going on in the various attempts to get rid of Trump. Even House Majority Leader Charles Schumer, in an unguarded moment, admitted so when he said that Donald Trump is being “really dumb” for picking a fight with intelligence officials. Why? “Let me tell you: You take on the intelligence community — they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you.”

Obligation of Appreciation

One last thing: What about hakoras hatov? Is that not also a Jewish value? The current occupant of the White House has done several things for us that no one has done.

He has let the Israelis take care of the Syrians and the Iranians. He threw out the Iran nuclear deal and has been truly committed to stopping Iran from acquiring a nuclear bomb, thus neutralizing an existential threat to the Jewish state. These actions have and will potentially save Jewish lives. He has also withdrawn the United States from the UN Human Rights Commission and UNESCO for their vicious anti-Israel bias, he’s made sure that the U.S. vetoed every anti-Israel resolution brought at the United Nations, and he’s unequivocally supported Israel’s right to defend itself.

He’s openly called out the Palestinians for their propaganda that every problem in the Middle East is due to the “occupation.”

All of these are things that no previous occupant of the White House has done or will be able to do.

What about his commuting of Reb Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin’s sentence? The president had nothing to gain politically from that. Nothing at all. Then again, I recall some in our community, even some with influence, being squeamish about supporting Rubashkin. After all, it wasn’t in style to support someone who the vaunted New York Times named an animal rights transgressor and an abuser of illegal immigrants, both patently false charges.

A Flawed Candidate Who is Good for the Jews

During the Holocaust, Rav Aharon Kotler said that he would prostate himself in front of the Pope if it could save Jewish lives. The Pope at the time, Pius XII, was a repugnant man whose refusal to condemn the Nazi slaughter of Jews gave the Church’s tacit approval to their actions.

Voting for and supporting even a flawed candidate whose policies much more represents our values, especially when large swaths and the most passionate, influential wing of the Democratic Party is the opposite, is a no-brainer. I wonder why some of our smart Never Trumpers don’t have the brains to figure that out.
Yated.com

58 comments:

  1. President Trump is a person not bound to ideology, but rather to pragmatism
    Huh?! If we follow his policy statements, pragmatism is never the issue. The Chinese are bad, therefore do XYZ. No hint of what will work for us, how things will develop and what is the best course of action, merely who is good and who is bad. Same with the illegal immigration issue, they are bad/wrong/illegal, and therefore build a wall. Again, no hint of how that wall is supposed to help (the data shows that it will be useless, when it eventually gets built), how the country will manage without the illegal immigrants, and why precisely they are the burning problem. With his ‘law and order’ commands, he again only talks about who is the good guy and who is the bad guy, never about what will actually work.
    I am not saying his policies won’t work, merely that their possible viability is coincidental to his policy decisions.

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    1. Your opinion is just that, and not very well thought out. President Trump almost single handedly changed public opinion and to an extant world opinion regarding the dangers of China. The tariffs are real, and are causing companies to open manufacturing facilities outside of China, and importers to look for alternative sources. The DOJ is investigating many and has charged more than a few of people in the U.S who were stealing IP for China. There is no question he would do more if not for the fact that many in Congress have been bought and paid for by China

      As far as the wall, customs and border patrol has said that they help immensely, but apparently, you know better https://www.cbp.gov/frontline/border-security .

      As far as what the country ill do without illegals, how about paying a wage that will make people want to do that work, That is how things worked in this country just 2 decades ago, and the middle class was larger because of it

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  2. The quotes from the Never Trumpers are straw arguments, that is not our claim at all. Trumps personal morals are only the answer to those who thought Clinton’s personal ta’avos were the most important issue back in the 90s. His personal way of acting is not the issue. Point No. 2 is a concern, but hardly the primary concern.
    The primary issues with Trump are not individual policies of his. None of us are experts in foreign policy, domestic policy, economics, medicine, warfare or the myriad issues that should fall on his desk each day. The Gemara tells us that there are insufficient resources in the world to write up the many cheshbonos a leader needs to run a country.
    When we vote for someone, we need to trust that he will make the best decisions according to the best available data. Will he trust experts or yes-men? Will he ask the correct questions to ensure he is utilizing the best possible advisors? Will he follow his gut, or actually spend the time, effort, and brainpower to get to the bottom of things?
    If not, we are all in danger.

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  3. Take this latest coronavirus. We are not doctors, and the pontificating of a bunch of ‘internet dwellers’ should be absolutely worthless. But is Trump any better? Is he utilizing the best possible evidence to make decisions? When the main advice from all experts across the board was to minimize contact with people, did he set an example? Or did he shake hands on stage on camera with a few strangers? Did he set up a task force managed and staffed by experts? Or did he put his non-expert vice-President and ignorant son in law to manage it?
    We don’t know how tax decisions are made, but we can be sure that behind closed doors he doesn’t act in any better fashion than he does in public. His decisions are dangerous because they are guesses, they are not based on analysis and understanding. His tax breaks may boost the stock market in the short term, but short term thinking is for mikva pontificators, the government may not think and act that way.
    Most presidents know their limitations, and the government is set up to allow for smooth transitions and long-term strategies even through various administrations. Trump is the first to ignore everything that was done before him, to sidestep the transition meetings and continuation of government strategies, to charge ahead like a bull in a china shop.
    We can sit in a coffee room in a shtiebel and discuss how terrible the Iran deal was, but did any of us actually read it? Did any of us actually figure out what the options were at the time? Get behind the partisan chatter and doomsday scenarios and figure out what the dangers of each option really were? We didn’t need to, because we just ploider to the guy who is willing to listen to us, but a President needs to be above all of that. I don’t want the guy pulling up his pants next to me in the mikva deciding on my life, do you?

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    1. It seems like you get overly impressed with job titles. In case you did not know how things work in government, it is not the most competent who rise to the top, it is the backstabbers and boot-lickers.

      Fauciis a hero of the left, yet he had one primary job, with billions allocated towards his annual budget, and he failed miserably. For a task force, you need a manager who has the ear of leadership. VP Pence was the perfect man for the job, he has administrative experience as a governor, and has the ear of the President as VP, and there were plent of "experts" on the task force.

      And FYI, the internet can be a great resource for people to educate themselves, you seem to be opposed to that concept, so I guess you just prefer to base opinions on your emotions

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  4. The misunderstanding of the conversation regarding Point No. 2 is terrifying.
    You have created a homogenous entity called the Democratic Party, and then made decisions based on that. It doesn’t work like that. The Democratic party is not monolithic and people do not march in lockstep. The only way we can influence those in the party who are less anti-Israel than AOC is by being at the table. Chuck Schumer is not anti-Israel, but that is for one reason. He needs the Jewish vote. We know his price, why shouldn’t we pay it for the security of our brethren. We can stop AOC, but not through supporting Trump. He is the best thing for her, he keeps the wind in her sails.
    And this party platform is a relatively new thing, it is not etched in stone. B”h Israel has been out of the news for the last couple of years. Nobody is condemning them, discussing them, or using them for anything. Halevai veiter. By keeping Israel out of elections, we do a lot to encourage this behavior. Let the extremists bark, that is what they do, every party has extremists. Only through a strong pragmatic wing of the Democratic party can we hope that our interests will not be a partisan issue.
    And that is what is wrong with ‘hakoras hatov’ politics. Look how Lakewood suffered from it. The Va’ad constantly tells us about hakoras hatov. But when the other party gets in, we find ourselves targeted and hounded by them. Christie took a strong revenge on us, because we played the hakoras hatov card. From a pragmatic point of view, we must always keep them on their toes, making elections about future benefits, not the past.

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    1. Hakaras hatov is more than just what it sounds like. It means he is food for usm AND HE IS. Sorry Mr. Elitist.

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    2. I don't know how I became Mr elitist for having a different opinion to you, but I really don't know what 'food for usm' means. I tried various conjugations yet I couldn't figure it out. What are you talking about?

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    3. My opinion, seems to me like you have Stockholm Syndrome, support your abusers, so maybe they will abuse you less. Shumer may give lip service to support of Israel, but he voted for the Iran Deal, he defends the antisimetic Dems in Congress, and he was silent in the face of Obamas antagonism to Israel.

      As far as the comparison to the Vaad, there is none, the Vaad calls for Hakaras hatov, when none is due, quite different than hakaras hatov to one who actually did good things for you

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    4. The Iran deal wasn’t “anti Israel” it was viewed as the best possible way of dealing with Iran at the team. The fact that you and the writer of this article can keep repeating that as if the Iran Deal was the Nuremberg Laws just shows your ignorant partisanship.

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    5. Dovid - some people see republican policies as part of Yiddishkeit. If republicans decided that the best way to deal with the Iranians is not through the Iran deal, that does not mean that others disagree. It means that anyone who disagrees is an anti-semite who wants to gas all Jews. That is how that belief system has degenerated. No place for differences of opinion, only shrill anger. Like this article over here.

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    6. Dovid, "it was viewed as the best possible way of dealing with Iran ..." by whom? Don't you find it strange that those who are ambivalent or antagonistic to Israel supported the deal, while those who have a history of supporting Israel opposed it. Israelis, who likely know more of the issue than you do, opposed it by 69% with only 10% in favor.

      Obama supported the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and Schumer said nothing nor did any other Democrats. They said nothing while that government cut off co-operation with Israel and threatened to end their peace agreement. Not only that, but Obama and the Democrats actually sanctioned the pro-Israel government of Moorsi.

      Turkey was constantly threatening Israel while Obama and his party were in charge, but have toned things down since President Trump took over, that is no coincidence.

      One has to be willingly blind to believe that the Dems are good for Israel, and lack of support for Israel is a life and death situation for those who live there

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    7. Joe
      I can give you an entire list of people who supported the bill who have never shown any antigonism toward Israel...including our own senator Cory Booker

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  5. And your picture of the Pope is propaganda, backed by little evidence. The wartime Pope was no saint, and we don't expect a pope to be a saint. But his 'refusal to condemn' was not necessary for the Nazis to do what they did, and he did much to try and rein the Nazis in. The idea that he is to blame for anything is ludicrous, and likewise your analogy to nowadays. If anything, according to your logic, Biden or Clinton should be the equivalent of the Pope, and based on this purported quote from Reb Aaron, you should have no problem voting for either of them

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    1. Honestly, this last comment makes absolutely no sense, which is why I didn't bother to go out and vote in the last Township Committee election. He said he would prostrate before the Pope if it would save Jewish lives, not sure how that has any relevance to your comment, although I doubt you do either

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  6. The frum never Trumpers are trying to show off how intellectual they are and look down at most frum Jews labeling them as rush limbaugh fans and influenced by Sean Hanninty and right wing talk radio. These same people can't hide their disdain for a president who is a ohev yisrael only because they suffer from a severe case of insecurity and rather feel welcomed and accepted by the New York Times writers and the left mainstream media. They live in their own bubble but try to influence their agenda and position with articles such as the Open letter that was sent out last week by a mix of writers who skillfully attacked the president and most frum Jews who voted for him and will iyh vote for him again.
    What previous presidents did to the Jewish brethren in eretz yisrael does not seem to bother these people who are blinded by self hatred and dripping from gaavah as only they are so smart to know who to support and vote for.

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  7. Shame on Agudah for allowing their writer and media spokesman yo attack the president.

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  8. And one more point

    You attack the never Trumpers for what you presume they think of you, not even realizing the irony of the issue. The never Trumpers, in your view, do not differentiate between the man and his tweets. You claim they think you do not differentiate. They never said anything about you, they said something about themselves. They do not differentiate. If you think there is a difference, that is your opinion.

    There was no reason for you to personally insult people with a different opinion to you.

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  9. I know this is just screaming into the wind but a good Israel policy doesnt really help all the (jewish and non jewish) people who died because of a mismanaged pandemic. If you believe he did a good job with corona then i dont want to argue about it And if youre gonna say what about cuomo and deblasio, i agree they should be fired also.

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    1. Well said!

      Symbolic support for Israel is less important to us than actual smart decisions in a pandemic.

      The embassy move helped nobody, not one Jew. Blaming Palestinians helps nobody. Reneging on the Iran deal has helped nobody at all. Doing the right thing at the beginning of the pandemic, when they weren't even sure about what would happen, would have helped all of us much more, both Israelis and Americans.

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    2. The hatred for Trump started way before the pandemic. You are just parroting left talking points. If it would have been Obama at the helm mr healthcare you would be praising him to the sky for the same response that Trump did.

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    3. Who cares when the hatred started? And how should i argue against your imaginary world? I believe that another president would have done a better job and thats why i wont vote for Trump. Not because of all of the stupid arguments about personal morals in the article.

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    4. You are completely deranged. When a pandemic hits there's NOTHING a president can do. It's like a snowstorm. It's nature and nothing can be done, besides shutting borders and ramping up PPE supplies both of which Trump did. And the democrats OPOSED that.
      The frum never Trumpers have shown their true colors and they are not pretty.

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    5. You are right, the reason we hated Trump before the pandemic is because we knew that when something serious, like a pandemic, comes up, he is not the person we want in charge. You don't know how much he messed up other matters, it will take years to realize. The pandemic was a way to show it to anyone but the 'true believers', that people like Trump should be talk show hosts, not President.

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    6. No, the borders were not shut down. They were shut to Chinese citizens, instead of anyone coming in from China. Chinese citizens were no more dangerous than anyone else coming from China, but he refused to shut down those borders.
      And ramping up PPE production was done way too late. He should have done that when the pandemic was only a possibility, just in case. Not when it was already here.

      And there was plenty more that could have been done. The message to take it seriously could have emerged earlier. (Here Trump supporters are supposed to interject that Cuomo and DeBlasio also didn't take it seriously. As though A. it is impossible that both are wrong, and B. they had access to the same information) When Trump called it 'just a flu', instead of encouraging hand washing, when he refused to wear a mask until long after the experts had agreed that it was about the single most important thing, when he would only discuss the stock market, not the risk to human life, he became the reason so many people in AMerica and here in Lakewood refuse to take it seriously.

      As Obama did with Ebola, stop it in its tracks, with decisive bold and swift action. But Trump waffled, flip flopped, jumped back and forth, and messed around with the media instead of dealing with the actual pandemic. Obama left him a handbook for such situations, based on the experience of the experts. But Trump ignored it and fired those who would have done a professional job.

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    7. I see that belief in Trump relies on ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome). Only by trying to turn the focus on Obama can they still that inner voice that tells them that Trump is good enough to hold the janitor's tools for the janitor to use, and nothing more.

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    8. You see things very literal Obama is a example pick any prior president. Also the elitist never wrote any public letters against obana no matter how bad the poljcy was for Jews.

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    9. Again I dont want to argue if someone else would have done a better job. I think yes and you are entitled to think no. Just dont tell me that the reason i dont like trump is because he has no morals and dont tell me Israel is the most important thing when i can clearly point to an issue which i believe is more important.

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    10. So Moshe, what is the specific aspect of the Pandemic that you feel the President handled wrongly? Don't site numbers, site actual concrete actions or inactions, that he should have done differently at the time with the available data.

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    11. As per my prior post I dont want to have this arguement. My point from the start was that the reason i dont like trump has nothing to do with morals and Israel is not the only reason to choose a president. And as i said before i dont think the pandemic response is black/white liberal versus conservative. I am first to say that DeBlasio and Cuomo deserve to at least be fired for their incompetence.

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    12. Moshe, So you make an accusation, but have nothing to back it up. What value do you think you bring to the conversation?

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    13. He didn’t start the conversation!! The post did when it made up a baloney argument about morals. If you want to know what the left believes trump did wrong about the pandemic there are many reputable publications which have done a fine job outlining them. I’m sure you’re just gonna call them fake news so what’s the point in wasting both of our times.

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  10. מהרסייך ומחריבייך ממך יצאו
    How true are the words of the נביא ישעיה self appointed people decide to dictate their personal opinions to a עם חכם ונבון over 90 % of frum yidden voted for Trump but a few elitists have to prove that they are intellectual and smarter than the simple poshuta yid.
    Let the never Trumpers hang out with the politicians they embrace.

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    1. I’m sorry to break it to you but the “elitist” are elitist for a reason. The vast majority of those with no college education vote for Trump. Their lack of nuanced thought and depth makes it easy for them to go with the guy that looks, thinks and talks like them and seems to have the simple brainless solutions. So I would not be proud of not being an elitist.

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    2. Dovid you seem confused about the definition of elitist, like you are on other things

      Definition of elitist from Miriam Webster

      (Entry 1 of 2)
      1 : one who is an adherent of elitism : one whose attitudes and beliefs are biased in favor of a socially elite class of people
      2 : a person who is or regards himself or herself as a member of a socially elite group

      As someone who values their own opinion so highly, I would have assumed you were aware that Elitist, and Elite are not the same thing. A college education hardly makes one wise, most members of ANTIFA are college graduates.

      I have engaged with many letists, and I have found many of them to be just like you, regurgitating the words of others, and unable to form a coherent argument. They rely on the words of others and their titles, to validate their viewpoints.

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  11. Great article. Half the reason I will vote Trump in November is just to spite these lunatic frum never Trumper Judenraat types.

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  12. At the midway point in Bein Hazmanim, Hefkervelt managed to wake up a usually dead issue and bring more than 20 comments.
    Well done!

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  13. I have an interesting observation.

    Anybody who has a dog in the race, who actually sees the results of elections and has to deal with politicians, does not have strong feelings for any side in the right/left divide. From the Agudah to Satmar, OU and the Lakewood Va'ad, every one of them refuses to take an absolute side between the parties. Only those who have the luxury of being shielded from the consequences of their decisions can harden themselves to one side of the aisle.

    I think that should tell us something. Those who need to know, think differently to those who only discuss it as a hobby.

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    1. your observation is condescending and insulting to the intelligence of he average Joe or 90 percent of frum Jews you say the elections to them is a hobby but the Aguda or Satmar have a dog in the race and dont have the luxury of being shielded from the consequences of their decisions. What is their dog if not for the almighty dollar.

      Do policies not matter to the simple person?
      does a frum yid not have to worry about the safety of yoshvei eretz yisrael?
      does policies of hashchasa and toava not matter?
      Is it only the organizations that know better that can tell us who to vote for because it helps fill their pockets?

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    2. The average person does not meet up with politicians, he has no way of knowing how they make decisions or how they affect his life.

      There is nothing condescending about that. Just like the average Joe knows nothing about medicine, and needs to rely on doctors, so too with politics. People with their own layman's opinion about medicine, halacha, foreign affairs or economics are foolish to be convinced of their position. How can you know the details on your own? Do you think the Drudge Report is the repository of all important information? We read biased news and biased opinion articles, we should never believe them at all. Find people who care about YOUR issues and see how they deal with it. Of course, I would prefer if Talmidei Chachomim decided these things, like in Eretz Yisroel. But all we have here is askanim, so that is what we can do.

      Your condescending attitude towards money is really sad. Money is not evil, money means Yeshivos can run, and Yiddishkeit can flourish. When Yeshivos have money, they can hire sufficient staff, their grounds can be maintained, and a professional attitude prevails. There is nothing wrong with voting for money. We all go to work for money, and spend many hours a day on it, there is nothing shameful in that.

      And policies of hashchosa and toi'eva may matter, but they are not the only issue. They are not forcing you to live that life, and our job is to keep apart from the non-Jewish gass, not to try and make them better. But even if that was one of our obligations, it does not supersede the obligation to keep Yeshivos open and to help Yidden live like Yidden, including preventing discrimination and keeping the peace.

      If there was anybody who actually lives the issues, who is involved daily in a practical manner with politics, who says that the only party we can deal with is the Republicans, that would be one thing. But is it not suspicious that there is no such person, from Ezra Friedlander to Chaim Dovid Zweibel, to Moshe Duvid Niederman. Not one. That should make a person rethink his position.

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    3. This is even more condescending and your blind hatred is clouding your ability to think straight. you are now implying that the right to vote is not something that any person can make his own decision on but has to get guidance from someone just like you ask a doctor for medical advice.

      Trump is the most accessible president who can talk straight to the people through social media and bypass the fake news bias driven media and talk directly to the people. The media is working against him his followers see him for what he is so your argument is moot.

      your argument to ignore policies because its more important to keep yeshivos open should be more of a reason to vote for Trump since he is advocating for school choice which could fund parents directly for tuition which is the biggest expense in raising a frum family today.

      You omit Rav Shmuel Kamenetzkys endorsement to vote for Trump and cherry pick names including a political hack a lobbyist who defended the Iran deal. The very fact that you even mentioned him speaks volumes of where you stand.

      60 million Americans and over 90 percent of frum Jews dont think like you

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    4. I am not implying it, I am saying it. Are you suggesting that every single person can have an opinion about every single topic? That is ludicrous, even if it is the American way.

      We need a President who can get things done. Bypassing the media never put bread on anyone's table, it never successfully fought a pandemic, or strengthened America's relationships with the world.

      I don't know if school choice is such a good idea, I was just saying that the money these organizations get does not get spent on block parties, it is necessary. If they refuse to be beholden to one party, their opinion is quite important.

      Reb Shmuel Kamenetzky is not in the trenches, neither did he say to tie ourselves to the Republican party. He said to vote for Trump, that is all. The idea that Jews are Republicans was not discussed over there.

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    5. You contradict yourself, first you said that we should be led by talmidei chachomim but than as soon as Rav Shmuel's statement to vote for trump does not sit well with you you have the chutzpa to say that he is not in the trenches but we should listen to a paid lobbyist like ezra friedlander to tell us who to vote for.

      You say we need a president who can get things done, please tell us who did more than trump in 3 years of office.

      Now you dont know if school choice is a good idea would you rather that schools be beholden to liberal policies and teach children about toeva and all the filth indoctrinated b the left. Are schools crying now that they got more money from Obama. Orgamizations are important just as it is important for the masses and other life style ramifications and policies, you fail to see that because your arguments don't hold against 90 percent of frum yidden who don't agree with you.

      Your hatred for trump is evident you keep changing your arguments because the points are not defend able or proven with facts.

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    6. Wow, comparing Obamas response to Ebola to Trumps on cornoavirus, that is really uneducated of you, perhaps you should surf the internet more often Ebola was a known quantity, it was already known that it was contagious, and is also only contagious when symptomatic

      The WHO reported to the world that Covid was not contagious from one person to another (and Fauci fell for it). When the President shut travel to the Chinese, Fauci argue against it, and The WHO condemned it

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  14. I’m not exactly sure what the motive is here. The reason for the anti trumpers is bc Trump is grossly irresponsible and does not know how to run the country. Nobody disputes that. In terms of Hakaras Hatov, what shaychus to voting for Trump? While it is true that as a Republican he tends to get along well with Israel, and he did commute Rubashkin for no apparent reason. But that’s not a reason to vote for him since there’s a whole lot more at stake. Yes, maybe for Rubashkin himself he should vote for him, and Bibi as well if he’s eligible to vote, but to say that Klal Yisroel as a whole should vote for trump although he’s grossly irresponsible just because of hakaras hatov doesn’t really make sense. In terms of policy he might do a better job than a senile Biden Democrat, but let’s not forget that Trump is from the most irresponsible politicians ever. That’s the reason for the “anti trumpers” period.

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    1. Nice try you can say Trump is grossly irresponsible as many times as you want but it wont change the facts if you cant back up your statements. Please explain how hakoras hatov doesn't make sense, what did trump do that he is not deserving of it.

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    2. You’re not making sense. Is he irresponsible or not? The fact is, he is very irresponsible and does not know how to lead the country. Corona as an example. He doesn’t stop tweeting whatever’s on his mind. No normal responsible person does that. Almost 100% of his decisions are made with himself in mind. In order to lead you need to understand leadership and responsibility. So just bc he’s done a few nice things, such as Rubashkin, that doesn’t make him more of a qualified leader in any way. Look, If Trump lost his money and there would be a question to raise money for him, or he would be in jail and you weren’t sure if you should try to get him out, than yes hakaras Hatov def would apply. But in terms of being a qualified leader and president? No! That’s why you’re missing the point. So now I ask you what did he do to earn our vote?
      My second point I was making was that the issue of Rubashkin was not a blood libel Beilus situation affecting all Jewry across the US. Of course there was heavy bias and anti Semitic decisions that led to his imprisonment, but still, in no way was any other person affected by it besides himself and his family. So in terms of Hakaras Hatov - he himself must feel that towards trump but what does this have to do with Klal Yisroel as a whole? Trump def didn’t do this bc he loves Jews it was bc of pressure from Kushner.

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    3. I don't think it was pressure from Kushner, it seemed more like a whim to me. Dershowitz pressed his buttons.

      Trump is like a child, if you know what you are doing, it should be quite easy to manipulate him. He isn't cerebral and he doesn't see past his instinct. Just press that instinct and you get what you want. A simple fool, nothing complicated.

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    4. Anon anti Trumper at 6:54 PM your stating your own opinion as fact and spewing vitriol with zero cases or facts to back up your claims that trump is irresponsible. You write "The fact is, he is very irresponsible and does not know how to lead the country". That is your opinion.
      You have an issue with him tweeting that is your own problem you failed to explain how trump tweeting is a problem.

      Wgat is shocking is your lack or arvus to klal yisrael with freeing Rubashkin, YOu daven a few times a day that Hashem is matir assurim but your hatred for trump is soo deep that your sounding like an idiot.

      Please detail with fats which president led the country that was to your liking

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    5. Anonymous My Opinion who I believe are the same person, Rubahkin was not that much different than Leo Frank which led tot eh foundation of the ADL, a now leftist organization that I am sure you support.

      He had the book thrown at him for no other apparent reason than the fact that he was a Jew, if you are OK with that, it explains a lot

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  15. Hate to bust everyone’s bubble, but unless you live in Florida, Ohio or some other swing state your vote doesn’t really matter...

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    1. very true (PA too), make sure your relatives in these states go out to vote

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    2. Can BMG move to PA for most of the year?

      Maybe open an American Mir in Florida?

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  16. For hakaras hatov I’ll send him a nice bouquet of flowers. You don’t mess up a country for years because of hakaras hatov!

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    1. How did he mess up the country? there is one common denominator for all the anti-Trump comments, they make accusations with no ability to back them up

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  17. The first post on this blog that I have seen with so many comments.
    Well done!

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  18. Please how in actions has President Trump been irresponsible? Please dont say corona response because 1 - all countries are clueless 2- The response is the governors of each state responsibilty to dictate how they want to control it. Trump can only do that much.
    President Trump has been a refreshing USA first policy. Please tell me that Biden is going to solve all the problems and run our country responsibly!! If you are being honest Trump wins on policy hands down. Biden is a carrer politician , Trump has built a real estate empire. (Dont tell me his father gave him all the money).
    Trump is responsible and has created a great economy until the vireus struck and it has caused a tumult throughout the world. The virus and its effects has nothing to do with Trump.
    One other major factor is Supreme court Trump wins he will choice one possibly two justices. That should be enough a reason to vote Trump.
    Trump or Biden? If you are going to be honest its Trump hands down

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    1. You have questions, but you do not want answers, just 'don't tell me'.

      But keep your enthusiasm up!

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