Thursday, January 5, 2017

Video: זקניך ויאמרו לך

Members of Pine River Village senior community in Lakewood came to the Planning board to discuss a application which will create major traffic on Pine street and disrupt the quality of life to their immediate and surrounding area. Initially the application was only brought up as a plan review and while attorneys for Lakewood shopping village said they plan to sit down with the neighbors, the public was not given a chance to discuss the application. The application will be heard on February 21st, 2017. After 3 hours the public was allowed to talk in general. Throughout the meeting officials were tough on the public for keeping to the proper decorum and respect newly appointed Chairman Mr. Herzl did a good job balancing and letting the public speak. 
3:12:50- Harav Feivel Cohen noted posek speaks about the mandate that we have to go to Bais Din first and have the Jewish court make a decision while the Bais Din may seek the opinion of professionals in planning and traffic issues.
- 47:25 Lakewood shopping Village

68 comments:

  1. This is what Lakewood has become. People should stop saying Lakewood is a City of Torah. It’s a City of “Money”. This is a city where money kashers everything…and without getting into details I mean “absolutely everything”…. “ad “Sheol Tachtis” …but this is a new low even for Lakewood. This is incredible.. We should all be "Moyche" on kovod H'torah!!! Rabbi Feivel Cohen, one of the preeminent poskim of today, had to be mevatel torah and come sit through a Planning Board Meeting!!!, Had to be interrupted and contradicted by the planning board attorney so that he can articulate his opinion on a matter that every Am Haretz knows makes no sense. I’m absolutely disgusted by what this city has become. This is not just ignoring Das Torah, this is not just telling the Rosh Yeshivas baloney stories for the sake of money.. This is downright kicking das torah to the ground and kicking it into submission. There are no words………..

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  2. Bais Din would not help because in the heliger Ihr Hatorah a psak bais din is ignored when you don't like the outcome. look what happened in Westgate with the shul. The planning board pushed off the application so both sides can work it out in Bais din. After 2 years the psak came back they can go ahead and build. Instead the Members of WG Mafia came down to oppose the application and fight against a shul. Not only that, but they hired a lawyer to fight it and there was mesira involved preventing the existing shul from building and expanding. The result is hundreds of children sit at home shabbos with no place or seats in shuls to daven together with their fathers. It's Is kol Dalim Govar and the planning board did all they can to get it off their hands and send to zoning. There is no justification to have "unzere" on the boards when they are beholden to special interests.

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  3. Why is HH is quiet on this? He speaks his mind on all kinds of building and overbuilding and traffic issues...somehow industrial building is different? HH please clarify

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    1. look up his history with cedarbridge. ask him why he dropped the lawsuit.

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  4. Please dont post if you dont know details. In Westgate they had a right not to listen to bais din. R' Malkiel told them so.

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    1. How can you be mevazeh the Rosh Yeshiva like that. He never said something like that nor would he take the achrayus of denying hundreds of children from davening in shul with their father. Unfortunately The RY was lied too and misled and given a very biased report of what goes on in WG by members of the self appointed ropshitz mob.

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    2. i highly doubt that's true, but even if it were a rosh yeshiva cannot halachically tell someone to ignore a psak bes din.

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  5. I am glad that Attorney Jackson recognizes the quasi- Judicial nature of these hearings. As such, I am sure that he recognizes the importance of corroborating testimony in such a hearing. That is why I am perplexed when he constantly shuts down testimony due to the fact that the witness is "repeating" the testimony of others.

    It is also important that he learns his place, he is not a member of the board, he is an attorney that is there to advise on legal questions only. Anything that is not a legal question, he has no more of a right to voice his opinion then any other member of the public, perhaps even less of a right, since he is not a resident of Lakewood.

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    1. The attorney was obviously taking orders from above. He never acted like this in the Neieman led meetings someone here is scared and they are trying everything in their power to deny residents from voicing their concerns.

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    2. I have watched a lot of these hearings. the attorney constantly shuts down testimony because they are "repeating what other said". that is called corroborating testimony, it is valid and appropriate.

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  6. Right. Every Rosh Yeshiva or Rov who does not agree with somebody,is always lied to and misled and not aware of the facts. The definition of Dass Torah today has become,that I listen to the dass of those Rabonim that agree with me. The other Rabonim were obviously misled so they have no Dass.

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    1. In this particular case They were misled and they admitted to it. Rav Forcheimer said so publicly he was not made aware of the true facts and he said they had no right to ignore the psak once they were in Bais din. Rav Malkiel also said they have no right to ignore Bais din but they are not listening to him

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    2. Daas Torah is a very over-used term. It is well known R' Shach's ZT'L definition of what Daas Torah is.

      Aside for that, hashoched yaavir einei Chachamim, is referring to Talmidei Chachamim that otherwise unquestionably had Daas Torah (Amoraim, who said this in regard to themselves).

      When people state .... must not know the facts, it is because they respect these people and assume the only way they have come to such an egregious conclusion is because they were given bad information.

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    3. They have their own Rabbonim who guide th et moi R Gavriel Finkel R H Hissiger R Fund they are not ignoring a peak din and hiring a lawyer without seeking the guidance of their rabbonim.

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  7. Rabosai there needs to be a major machoah on the bizayon hatorah to Harav Hagaon R' Feivel Shlit"a. Possibly the biggest Talmid Chochom in America today gets up to speak, says something so basic that evey jewish child understands, and he gets treated like that. The board wasn't moche on his kovod as an attorney tells him off but just sits there. 'Oy loznayim shkach shomeos' - how low have we fallen. The chillum hashem is huge, but not as big as the chillum hashem of not going to beis din. Can someone explain why they aren't willing to go to beis din?

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    1. We only make machoas against the Zusman plays and theaters like the one they are building on Pine steet

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  8. Therapists in A VAAD affiliated therapy agency lost a din torah. They ignored the psak din and went to court claiming the Bais din was corrupt, and there was a problem because the dayanim were all men. Yes you heard it right.

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  9. I was worried that a 13 building mall would add traffic to Pine St. But Urban Planner and expert witness Flannery said it would lighten traffic, so now I look forward o this wonderful development that would lighten the traffic on Pine.

    Likewise, I used to think Lakewood had a traffic problem, but after watching much of Flannery's testimony on how the majority of these developments to not impact the traffic, I realized that Lakewood does not have a traffic problem.

    Flannery's credentials should not be accepted by any committee or board in Lakewood.

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    1. Sweet potato tempuraJanuary 5, 2017 at 6:44 PM

      It's apparent to anyone following Flannery these past few years, that he is mistaken on the definition of the word "traffic." He must think it means something else entirely. Like maybe he thinks the word traffic means, let's say, "hunger." so, of course, if you build more development and you bring more cars to a neighborhood, of course there won't be anymore hunger; it's totally unrelated!
      Somebody please explain to him the correct definition of "traffic."

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  10. No one is even talking about the 80,000 sqft Cedarbridge office/daycare building on Pine across from Albert. 2 floors daycare and 2 floors office. They claim it wont add traffic since the daycare will be servicing the people working in the office buildings. As if the daycare will only be for the people working in the corporate park....

    SP 2220 Pine Holdings, LLC

    They will have the public hearing the same date of Feb 21 and the board was concerned about pickup and drop off of kids adding traffic.

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    1. the daycare center is OK, because it is only for people who work in the surrounding buildings and will enter from Cedar Bridge.

      The developer said it, so tit must be true. I am sure that the Planning Committee will deed restrict it only for employees of those buildings.

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  11. For those who saw the viral video of the lady screaming and had a good laugh, perhaps if you watched what went on at the meeting for all 3 hours you would have a different perspective. The seniors came down and waited for 3 hours to talk only to be told at the end that they can not talk about the application they came to discuss. That is why they were so upset walking out of the meeting.

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  12. Why is everyone still so busy with WestGate? It's like years old, let's move on to better stuff. It's getting boring, one side is busy calling the other every name in the books, enough already.

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    1. Why do u cry over the churban, it's like years old..
      Westgate as of today has no room or seats in shuls for the residents. children sit at home with no place in shul. Men can't daven either the shuls are packed in basements with hazardous conditions. The BM of Westgate only has room to hold 1 tenth of the development. But anyone else who wants to build was threatened chased away or shut down. BH the Lutzk expansion now created some room for Mishpachos in WG to daven and feel welcomed.
      Until the avla that was done is corrected it will be on the front burner no matter how boring it is for you. Apparently it does not bother you or excite you that children even of Bar Mitzvah age and older sit home and in Bed shabbos because there's no room in shul.

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    2. Drier gut gezogt!

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    3. What cant WG peopledaven by Rabbi Blumenthal on white rd 120 seats empty

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  13. 240 acres of township land is not enough? Now they have a chutzpah to request variences!!!! So they can make a few more bucks!!!
    GREED.

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    1. They requested variances so they would need approval, so the public will protest, so they can switch it to residential. Chad Gadya.

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  14. The Vaad will need to re-interpret what/who is qualified as "Das Torah"

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  15. Dass Torah belongs to the commenters on this blog. The Rosh Yeshivas if BMG dont have any according to these people.

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  16. Are you saying that the fact that Helberg couldn't build a 14,000 sq foot shul in exactly the spot that he wanted to is equivalent to the churban? Nobody opposes his shul and nobody is stopping him from building a shul but the kind of building he wanted to build in that spot was opposed for valid reasons. That doesn't make everyone who opposed it nazis, mosrim, mushcasim, reshaim etc etc....

    If you're concerned about the lack of seats for children in shul then why don't you encourage some dialogue between rabbi helberg and the residents of WG who have valid concerns to do it in a way that works instead of calling people all kinds of names. I can guarantee you that all your comments here and all the name calling will not get a shul built and will not create one extra seat in WG.

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    1. Now your trying to play victim because someone called you out for the redifos that were perpetrated for 10 years against the shul. You say "nobody opposes the shul" have you no busha??? They were fighting against the shul from day one. When the plans were smaller they still came to fight against the shul. The bluff was called and the motive behind it has been exposed for all of Lakewood to see. The redifos went against any shul who opened in wg who did not go under vaad control. Rabbi Flamm was chased out so was Rav Walkin and others. After the din torah with the "Mikva" They still opposed the shul.
      Dialog don't work when the other side wants you dead.

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    2. Anonymous at 3:22, you're lying capabilities are astounding! How can you sit there with a straight face and say the statement, "nobody opposes his shul and nobody is stopping him building"? How can you live with yourself after telling such a blatant lie? Are you not embarrassed?

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    3. Shouldn't that be "RABBI Helberg" rather than just "Helberg"?!

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    4. Not necessarily.

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    5. Excuse me?! That pinpoints a major issue in this town - no kavod for rabbonim. However much one disagrees with a Rov, he is still a Rov.

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  17. Listen to the oilam laughing at the lawyer's lips moving at 51:17. Generally when a lawyer's lips are moving, he is lying. But this guy really takes the cake. He is a Talmid Muvhak of George Orwell. The more cars you bring to Pine Street, the better the traffic situation will be.

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    1. He is not a lawyer, he is an engineer and urban planner, Flannery, but other than that, you are correct.

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  18. Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like Rabbi Cohen was opposing his fellow PRV residents, by announcing that they should have not hired an attorney to fight this fight in the planning board.
    He did not inherit his position in Klal Yisroel, and he has no ulterior motives. Therefore his da'as Torah should be the one we shoule be most concerned about.

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    1. I don't think he sat through 3 hours of a meeting to send a message to his neighbors. They hired an attorney because they thought there would be a hearing an decision made at that meeting, they had no choice.

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    2. Well their attorney should be asked why he didn't explain to them that its only a tech meeting. . Everybody knows that this is a tech meeting only ,especially for an application this size. If they make an exception to vote at a tech meeting ,they let you know in advance. Their attorney is either ignorant or took them for a ride to make more money .

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    3. What does what there attorney told them and what they thought the meeting was about have to do with your first point. You are jumping topics, seems like you never did really question to whom R' Cohen's remarks were directed

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    4. There is a disclaimer on the agenda that they have the right to do a combined hearing and have a joint tech meeting and public hearing if they so choose.

      If the opposing lawyer would not come down they could slip that in and get approved. It was also very beneficial to have Pine River Village residents there so people know there is strong opposition

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  19. I never heard a word from any Rosh Yeshiva in BMG in support of any of these shenanigans. If they held it was right they would let the oilam know.

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  20. People...there was a point made in an earlier post that was very interesting. This all may very likely be bait and switch.

    Think about it. As much as Lakewood is expanding, can they really justify all this commercial space? Will they find all these big box stores? Its very risky.

    Furthermore, check out the picture. One area is designated as "village outdoor theater". Builders draining millions into this undoubtedly know the vibe of the surrounding communities and that it would upset them. Why use that terminology and ask for trouble? And I heard that they don't even require variances.

    The point is that they know what they are up against. Assuming it gets killed, or even if it (probably) doesn't, they will turn around and say, OK we will use this for homes and show how much we care about local needs...and then cram in an insane amount of homes. At that point, they will have "given in" but also gotten what they wanted.

    However, it will cripple the already almost crippled Pine Street and Route 9. Therefore, this fight MUST focus on congestion and traffic and overbuilding. Also, locals must be made aware of this and they need to point this out at the upcoming hearing. Or else its more density and traffic and heartache. Folks wake up and see whats really going on

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    1. Totally agree.. And I heard the same thing from a few people who know what's really going on.. I live in the area and I'd much rather they build the retail then anything else.. Especially apartments or housing.. Residential will make traffic 10 times worse than retail.. At exactly the same time it's already terrible.. At least shopping traffic is not based on rush our in lakewood... Let's be realistic.. The trees aren't going to stay there,, something is going there.. Let's fight the variances and call their bluff.. Let them build it.. The lady from the video's wishes will come true without her teffilos.. They will be sitting with empty stores.. Even if phase I gets built they'll never build phase II which is the part that's directly on pine street across from PRV anyway.

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    2. I also live in the area, and believe that residential is the most likely aim for the developers, but I disagree on allowing the commercial.

      The taxpayers in this town should not be forced to choose between the lesser of 2 evils. The zoning ordinance should never have been passed to allow retail.

      If they can't add office or warehouse, then it should revert to the Township. They can either wait till there is demand for those uses, or build a park.

      This town has added tens of thousands of residents and not added one park other then the soccer feild that requires a permit. If kids want to play football or basketball, there is nowhere for them to go. The existing park are packed, there needs to be healthy outlets

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    3. I would agree exept that looking at it like the lesser of two evils is not realistic. If you look at the smartgrowth plan here

      http://www.lakewoodnj.gov/images/db/sforsyth-3382-2013-Smart-Growth-Plan-Adopted.pdf

      you will see that the plan calls for a major portion of Cedarbridge Corporate to be residential. They don't need our permission for it, the Smart Growth Plan which BTW is approved by the State of New Jersey, is all they need. You HAVE to choose between retail and residential. The time to fight that was back when the Smart Growth Plan was adopted. there were not even a Minyan of people there to contest then. Now its too late.

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    4. there is a Smart Growth Plan being worked on now. the last Smart Growth Plan was never implemented and has no legal status.

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  21. Jackson has begun to act like the chairman the past few meetings. The board needs to put him in his place, he has terrible know-it-all attidue

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    1. You would think he was paid by the applicants. He is disrespectful to the public that he is supposed to be working for and should be replaced.

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    2. I second the motion the arrogant builders attorney needs to be fired.

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  22. Why do they need so many parking spaces, the whole Pine Street is already a parking lot!

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  23. This is OUR land your high taxes is paying for all this? If lakewood would actually sell it off parcel by parcel and having the new offices pay real estate taxes OUR taxes would be less. How much? But less instead we get aggravation and higher taxes.. never forget that!
    This is YOUR land!

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  24. "we provide more than the required amount of parking"

    Required:885 provided:887

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  25. Why should anybody show the board or their attorney any respect. They constantly ignore the concerns of the residents. All of their hearings are one big farce. If they want the people to respect them, then they have to show respect to the residents. Not make them waste their time by constantly pushing things off and other shtick. If people have to sit for 3 hrs for an application to be pushed off, of course they are going to shmooze and make noise.

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    1. it wasn't pushed off. it was a prelimenary hearing to schedule the actual hearing. perhaps the residents received wrong information.

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    2. My comment was not about this specific application it was more of a general statement about the lack of decorumthat mr jackson is always complaining about

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  26. Another little bit of info that might help fight the fight...

    I just checked the Smart Growth Plan. here (page 19) http://www.lakewoodnj.gov/images/db/sforsyth-3382-2013-Smart-Growth-Plan-Adopted.pdf

    There is a portion of the Development that is on Pine St that was designated by the plan to be "Public Community" space. They should not be allowed to make that retail !!!

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  27. http://firstamendmentactivist.blogspot.com/2017/01/cedarbridge-corporate-campus-full-site.html?m=1

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  28. I am quiet on this subject because I was already dragged through the mud after being misled by someone and having people say I was suing yeshiva about cedarbridge. I never sued yeshiva and I never opposed anyone's project on land that they own. If the town Is stupid enough to allow such things and someone can make money, who am I to stop them .Even when I am personally being hurt I would never oppose a project. When I simply asked the bais horaah to provide a parking lot so they won't hurt local businesses I was met with a barrage of accusations that went from moiser to Farbissen loi farginer. I obviously think this plan is an awful idea, just like most people in Lakewood. I am not anti yeshiva and I want to see yeshiva thrive, but I believe it can be done without hurting the town. I recently stumbled on an article I wrote for the lakewood scoop 8 years ago. I was laughing at how much I wrote about that needs to change, still applies today. Why couldn't we fix things 8 years ago? So much hatred and chillul Hashem could have been avoided
    http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2009/10/r-hershel-responds-to-r-shain.html

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    1. On behalf of the people of the town, from yeshivaleit to Rabeiim to Balei Batim I'd like to say a big yasher koach to R' Herschel for standing up for us. Thanks!!!

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  29. HH: I don't think you are being honest. Whenever there are discussions about big housing projects etc. you are the first one to jump on the bandwagon, and correctly so, about the horrible effects to city infrastructure, traffic and safety. Somehow when it comes to commercial building you fall silent. Is that because you are involved in a similar space? I'm just saying....

    And this whole thing about not being anti-yeshiva, c'mon. What does that have to do with anything? We are discussing a specific building project, and a fair person understands that an opinion on such a matter has nothing to do if or not they are anti-yeshiva. I can't believe that you would write that "If the town Is stupid enough to allow such things and someone can make money, who am I to stop them" So if the town does something stupid, you won't make a ruckus? You only make a ruckus when the town does something smart and builders do stupid things? Who are you kidding?

    And remember the article about "still a yeshiva town"? Who made the first comment about a Chinese auction in 2002? If you are not anti-yeshiva why did you speak up then? Oh, because its about the issue, not about your opinion of the yeshiva. Right. That makes sense. Sorry your are being as honest as a Clinton.

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  30. I am absolutely 100 percent against any commercial development that could hurt anybody else or cause more traffic. My project that I am planning asks for no variances and is absolutely allowed in the b2 zone. I also do not agree with it being built, but I am left with no choice. The downtown was left to rot in order that strip malls managed by meir lichtenstein can succeed as well as making a case for having cedarbridge. And criticizing something that someone affiliated with the yeshiva does is not being anti yeshiva. If it were up to me, which its not, this town would be much more of a yeshiva town than it currently is. I miss the good old days. I would gladly trade my choice of ten places to get Sushi to have the town the way it once was. I understand progress is a part of life ,but when that progress removes the soul of our town and does not really create a better quality of life , even for the new residents ,it should be called what it is. A kleptocracy.
    With all that said, please stop trying to get me to be against cedarbridge and put myself out there for the good of lakewood. I will let everyone else scream about it. I never opposed anyone's projects and I'm not going to start now.

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    1. The overwhelming majority of the town believe that R' Herschel is looking out for the good of everyone - much more then most of the township committee.
      If only we would have listened to him years ago, the traffic, quality of life, etc. would be so much better.

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