Tuesday, March 1, 2016

Planning board agenda March 1, 2016

 PUBLIC HEARING- Westgate BM hearing will not be heard today.
1. SP 2047 Congregation Olam Chesed Inc  Hillside Boulevard Blocks 11.12, Lot 25 Preliminary and Final Major Site Plan for a proposed synagogue
Applicant has requested to carry this application to a later meeting. This project will not be heard tonight.  Read Draft agenda HERE

125 comments:

  1. can't believe that the opposition is still standing. A bais din paskened that there is no problem. all their rabbonim encouraged them to negotiate, to no avail. Their true intentions were so nicely exposed when they mentioned that they are willing to negotiate if they will be in charge of the shul. Power hungry, jealous individuals, that have nothing else giving them satisfaction in their lives, other than a bit of POWER. forcing hundreds to continue to daven in cramped dangerous conditions. The Inquisition would be proud.

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  2. Mesira at the highest degree! They hired a Lawyer to bring up am issue that no one knew or cared about all to stop a shul. Who is the Rav that let these "chashuvim" hire a lawyer to bring up an issue of deed restrictions which had nothing to do with any of the issues.

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    Replies
    1. Ask R' Gavriel Finkel he holds you have a right.

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    2. depends on the day of the week. He holds you can before he holds you can't and after he holds you can't. or maybe he doesn't have an opinion on this at all. There is definitely nothing in writing from any respected rav, giving permission to hire a lawyer.

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  3. Is this Jackson? Toms River? Howell? NO! its right here in Unzer ihr Hatorah! shoimu shomayim al zois. These are so called roshei moisdos and chashuvei am that are opposing yenem for their own kavod and power/

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  4. Why is there a double standard Hershel H. Had pashkevillin against him for mesira regarding the Bais Horaah and here you have choshuva people who hired a lawyer to fight against a shul. this is mind boggling.

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    Replies
    1. There is no double standard at all it all comes down to whoever has better pull and protektzia or related to the right people.

      Delete
  5. It seems as all of the above comments are from the same person. However according to all your accusations, can you please explain 2 things that have left me scratching my head.
    1. Why would someone who davens in Rabbi Helbergs shul with his children, come out and openly speak against the shul due to safety concerns, surely he is not "power hungry" and against the shul for no reason?.....

    Is it possible that whether or not you agree with them, they may have some concerns not based on jealousy etc. To accuse one or two people of what you have is one thing, but to go and attack many people and accusing them all of the power hungry antics, is absurd, and makes you look like an idiot.

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    Replies
    1. Indeed - the ANONYMOUS is you..and me....and everyone and everything. Whoa......

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    2. Spin it however you want these "concerns" can be said about any shul in Lakewood or any frum community if you dont like it move out to the boondocks. Besides for the fact the Rav Forcheimer stated very clearly that those concerns were dealt with.

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    3. No regular mispallel at Rabbi Helberg is opposed to the shul, and that includes most of the neighbors. The majority of the opposition doesn't live near the shul at all, and everyone knows that they would oppose the shul anywhere it wanted to build in Westgate.
      Bottom line, nobody wants a shul near them unless it's their own. anyone opposed to the shul is indeed either jealous or self centered. if there was a legitimate safety issue, the mispallelim would be the first ones effected with their children coming and going to daven.

      Delete
    4. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 2, 2016 at 12:16 PM

      I think that HaRav Barry Freundel should represent the shul .
      I am sure that his testimony will convince everyone the importance of putting a shul next door to a mikveh nashim

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    5. Lets not play the Bbarry Freundel card here talking about men who have total control and full access to a mikva nashim. Second, the rabbonim who looked into the issue know a little better than you mr former Bais eliyohu blogger. When you will be asked by 2 sides to give your opinion than it will carry some weight until than you are not in the league of local Rabbonim who looked into the matter or any rav of shuls that have mikvaos for noshim in their own buildings.

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    6. This is coming from the same side that was videotaping the Neshei Westgate at the hearing.
      We all saw the clip of the "cameraman" at the hearing get up a take his video but yet you put your head in the sand that the same guy might not stand by the shul`s fence and do the same thing with the mikveh .
      I know it`s Adar but you can`t have it both ways

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    7. Dont call yourself Alumni Bais eliyohu its an embarrassment to that institution. You have a perverted mind nebach sitting to long by your computer (can we see ur search history)getting back to the point the Rabbonim B'H did not feel this is an issue at all

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    8. I am not the one with the camera .
      It was a pro shul member who was videotaping the Nashim. I challenge you to call him perverted and an embarrassment.

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    9. The fact that those same nashim were ready and willing to get up and speak about Mikveh, in public, not to mention in front of 200 MEN, speaks volumes about how worried they are of the tznius and privacy issues!! Who needs Barry freundel?!

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    10. And we are not supposed to be worried about people like you?

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    11. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 4, 2016 at 1:49 PM

      I am still waiting for Anon 3/3/16 9:18 AM to denounce the cameraman . He sounds as tongue tied as Donal Trump was in denouncing the KKK .
      It should be a no brainer but Anon 3/3/16 12:19 seems to permit ladies who he thinks are not so tznius to be filmed. Are there three creepy guys or is Anon really the cameraman ben Barry

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    12. The cameraman has nothing to do with the shul. He is a total separate entity and takes pictures of what he wants and publishes them where he wants. If ladies don't want to have pictures of themselves taken for tznius reasons, they shouldn't put themselves in compromising tznius situations!

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    13. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 5, 2016 at 9:20 PM

      For a woman to attend a zoning hearing is called being in a compromising position ? How about for a woman to take her children to a park, is that also putting oneself in a compromising position ?
      Anon was asked to call the cameraman the same thing that he called others.
      I will repeat the challenge is "cameraman" can you denounce the "cameraman " the same way that you denounce me?
      Time is ticking . You have had a long time to think about it .

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    14. Bais Eliyohu guy... your mind and shikul hadaas has been clouded and dirtied by the many hours your sitting online watching videos and thinking about perverted hypothetical scenarios about a mikva nashim..Its a big dirrerence when a women goes to a public meeting in a enclosed room full of men than going to a park. habatala mavie liydei shimum

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    15. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 6, 2016 at 12:09 PM

      Are you a fourth person who will not denounce the "cameraman" or are you the same person.
      I don`t know what your shikul hadaas is , but last I checked even if I conceded that the woman were wrong don`t you agree that two wrongs don`t make a right . I merely challenged Anon into calling the same name that he did to me to the cameraman.
      Number Two the Nashim did nothing wrong. BMG , Dr Shanik and many others have asked women to participate in many public hearings
      There were two reasons that Mr Cameraman did what he did one was to intimidate ladies the other I will leave for you to decide.
      I again challenge you , will you condemn the cameraman or not .
      The room was not enclosed (unless you don`t know what enclosed means) it was as open as any Bais Faiga Chasuna ( before they made an entrance for Men and put up a mechitza) . Would you have condoned for a random guy to video in that venue ( that means area and place)?
      Time is ticking .Nobody seems convinced that you disagree with the cameraman .
      I wonder why .

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    16. What's with the high vocabulary? Who are you trying to impress and why? Is it because even you can see that you're coming over as a little boy who, not getting exactly what he wants, is throwing a tantrum and calling everyone names? Why do you get upset each time someone's viewpoint (that means way of looking at things) differs (that means isn't exactly the same) from yours? A little piece of advice - GROW UP!!!!

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    17. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 6, 2016 at 6:03 PM

      I have not lost my temper once. As a matter of fact I never even used caps (something that you cannot claim) .
      I have just stated what I perceive to be correct and just .
      Also , I have not gone beyond an 8th grade level of vocabulary.
      but it sounds like you also support the cameraman

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    18. You've obviously never gone beyond 8th grade period! Why are you so obsessed with the cameraman? I thought your issue is with the zoning?!

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    19. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 7, 2016 at 5:45 AM

      My issue is that the mere fact that a cameraman was asked and encouraged to film shows us that there are members of the shul who are more anshei shlomei Barry than lehavdil Anshei Rav Chaim Epstein ZTL whose ideals this shul is supposed to espouse.
      It shows that the shuls baalei batim are ill suited to be neighbors with a mikveh nashim.
      I am not the one who requested the cameraman to come. That was a spineless tactic by the anti-safety and pro-traffic team .
      For the better part of a week I have challenged those who might otherwise disagree with me about about the traffic & safety to denounce that as an embarrassment and perverted act but all they have done throughout this challenge is whine.
      I guess your true colors are starting to show

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    20. As has been pointed out already, nobody asked the cameraman to come or to film. He goes where he wants, films who he wants and posts the pictures where he wants. He was not asked by anyone to attend. You're only spewing hate with the intent to stir up more trouble and deflect the negative attention from your disgusting ulterior motives. If you're so pro peace etc, stop spewing hate in every form possible.

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    21. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 7, 2016 at 12:08 PM

      You can`t bring yourself to say that he did a spineless and perverted act can you .
      Is that because deep down you feel those ladies "deserved it"?

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    22. You're the spineless, perverted one! So he took a picture of the group of ladies tummuling with the lawyer about opposing the shul. SO WHAT???? No one said he's right! Just get over it already and stop obsessing! You seriously have major issues if that's your biggest worry about this whole pashkevill!

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    23. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 7, 2016 at 3:37 PM

      You can`t use the same words that I am it`s bad writing . If you would like to call me something please choose another adjective
      I am saying that if the shul cannot condemn that they are ill suited to prepare with tzniyus issues.
      Can you denounce the cameraman the he did an embarrassing and spineless act or not ?

      Delete
    24. Or maybe you should admit that tznius is not really what bothers you most. Your real issue is that your granddaughter may one day come across that video......and be so proud of her bubby, fighting a shul. Maybe that video may somehow end up in an educational series about anti semitism in the early 21st century, shown in all jewish schools.

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    25. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 8, 2016 at 5:37 AM

      I would be most proud for my einekel to know that her grandmother stood up for tzniyus eben if it meant taking on a bunch of men who tried to use spineless and cowardly tactics to stop her. If anything this video will be used to show how a bunch of Jewish men tried to intimidate Jewish women into forcing them to accept a shul next door to a mikveh nashim .
      And the refusal of the shul to condemn even on the most basic levels a person who tried to use his camera to intimidate those woman will be resounding for all girls of the future to know that these cowards might have been their zeide

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    26. That her grandmother stood up against the psak of Rav Forcheimer against the psak of a bais din. That she partnered with others whose only objective and goal is to stop a makom Torah U'tfilah. Never instead of being the wife of oin ben Peles she failed and let her husband hide and continue fighting a shul he opposed even when there were no made up tznius and mikva issues. The more you obsess about videos the more your addiction becomes apparent.

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    27. by then it will definitely be established that there was no tznius concern, as all involved rabbonim paskened. It was at most some liberal minded driven sensitivity issue, which has no place in our way of life. At that time, the truth would already be well known, that there were ulterior motives involved, and everyone will be claiming that their grandparents were not from the zera amalek.....but videos don't lie.

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    28. Alumni Bais eliyohu, you seriously need psychiatric treatment. Your obsession with Mikveh nashim is taking over your life! It's also clouding your comprehension of things even when they're said in words of 2 syllables or less. THE CAMERAMAN GOES TO ALL EVENTS. HE FILMS WHAT HE WANTS! NO ONE CONDONES THE FACT THAT HE POSTED A PICTURE OF WOMEN ON THE WEB!! However, you are spewing hate purposely by constantly insinuating that Bais medrash d'kelm woods asked him to film the ladies. They did not ask him. I repeat, they did not ask him. In case you still can't get it, once more, THEY DID NOT ASK HIM!!!! Just get over your obsession or get help.

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    29. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 8, 2016 at 7:27 AM

      I am fully confident that history will show that these were/are courageous men and woman who fought for what was correct even in the face of cynics and naysayers.
      History does look at the Zhviller Chasidim as evil for causing the Mir to adjust their building plans rather as concerned parents who wanted better living conditions for their families
      They have their rabbonim and you have yours.
      Neither one is more correct than the other.
      The more that you avoid to condemn those who have already breached serious tzniyus issues will only cause you to go down in history as someone who was such a coward that they could not even Anonymously denounce a perpetrator of impropriety

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    30. I think that as anonymous denunciation, we can count on mr. ex bais eliyahu. he already did that.

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    31. Mr Bais Eliyouhu have you voiced the serious Breaches of Tznius with Rav Zimball, many of his mispalelim walking by the mikva nashim some even congregating and shmoozing right in front of it! How about the fact that a man has the keys to the Mikva nashim and enters at will with no accountability or shemira. That men go in late at night or early morning, that a man has access 24 hrs to the mikva?

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    32. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 8, 2016 at 10:11 AM

      So you want to make the situation worse or better?
      I sense that you are someone with a sense of of priority .
      Would you like to work together on improving that ?

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    33. What are your priorities? Spewing hate vs obsessing over Mikveh nashim?!

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    34. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 8, 2016 at 3:42 PM

      My priority is that there should be the rule of law and order in Lakewood .
      I have not said one thing to even imply that I Chas VeShalom hate another yid . I have merely pointed out that certain groups are not capable of policing the situation as it stands.
      Is that hateful?
      If someone wants to improve quality of life is that wrong?

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    35. If you stamp on everyone else's head to improve your quality of life, then, yes it's very wrong.

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    36. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 9, 2016 at 5:08 PM

      I think you meant stomp.
      I never though that tzniyus, safety and traffic concerns would hurt anyone`s head.
      My apologies .
      Chazal say "chosh berosho yaasok baTorah " so there is your prescription. Don`t forget limud hamussar mussar is part of torah as well

      Delete
  6. Agree, some people are just simply selfish and self centered, while others are
    jealous and power hungry.

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  7. ולמלשינים אל תהי תקוה
    paying a lawyer to masser on a shul nuff said.

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  8. זייער גוט געזאגט

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  9. How do these people even walk around knowing that they paid and have a hand in straight up mesira stopping a shul from being built.

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  10. Please. Stop using the word mesira. Stopping a shul is not a nice thing to do but it has no shaychus to mesira.

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  11. I am not from there snd know nothing about it ,but the more you use nasty words like mesirah and malshinim ,the more people will be against you.

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  12. If somebdy wanted to build a 10 story office or apartment building next door to your house, is it mesirah for you to use your right to challenge it at the planning board ? You might say that its not menshlich to,oppose a Shul that is needed, but its not mesirah

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  13. If this aint mesirah, tell me what is. How do you explain paying a lawyer to go to the planing board and bring up an old issue from years back that no one cares about, just to stop a shul. That my friend is mesira..

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  14. Nonsense. Using a government granted right to try yo convince a olanning board nitvyo approve something is not mesirah by any stretch. Ut might be nasty, it might be not nice ,it might be disgusting etc etc but it us not being moser anybody to goyim. The planning board makes decisions ,and by living in a town you are agreeing to live by the rules of allowing people to give the planning board their opinion on any matter. No shaychus to mesirah.

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  15. I know its hard to face it being called a moser but that is exactly what has transpired here. According to Rav Moshe Feinstein massering on a zoning issue is MESIRA. YOU HIRED a LAWYER TO STOP A SHUL AND YOUR NAMES ARE ATTACHED TO THIS

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    Replies
    1. What are the names and what is the complaint? And can the complaint be rectified?

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    2. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 2, 2016 at 12:23 PM

      You never opened a shulchan aruch and are paskening what the definition of mesira means based on silly poster and hand out. I have met people like you you who pasken halacha leMaseh from the Ichud BeChedud - I kid you not .

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  16. It can only be rectified when certain people stop going all out to kill the Helberg shul and stop trying to gain every bit of power possible

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    1. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 2, 2016 at 12:20 PM

      I have not heard one cogent(that means convincing) explanation from anyone as to why safety concerns are not paramount (that means important) to those who are pro expansion (that means becoming larger) of the shul

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    2. Rabbi Helberg's shul may not be the right type of shul for everyone, but don't accuse them of practicing human sacrifice. If there was a safety concern, the mispallelim of the shul would be the first ones to be concerened, as they and their childrrn are constantly cong and going there, and many of them live right there. Those yelling safety, the vast majority don't live near that area and have ulterior motives. Once the all way stop sign was placed at that corner, it is probably the safest intersection in Westgate. If you are concerened for safety, you should be more concerned with the safety of these mispallelim who are forced to daven in a severe fire trap, packed like sardines, in hot temperatures (even with air condition running all winter). Crying safety is just trying to justify the inexcusable, and a favorite tool borrowed from a left wing, liberal's toolbox.

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    3. I believe a cogent reply i.e convincing reply was challenged here. You have not provided one u just passed the buck

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    4. Why is it that the shul can not modify its plans to accommodate all ?
      Why is it an all or nothing issue?
      Instead of screaming mesira and acting like a bunch of Ingerisher Konaim they can offer some solutions.

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    5. They complied with every single modification asked of them. It's a classic case of moving the goal posts - whatever the Maffia insists on you agree to lemaan ha shalom, then they look for more ways to cause trouble! They think everyone is dumb blind and stupid not realizing that they're more transparent than a pane of glass!!!

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    6. A mechitza is everything a big modification? It`s Mafia tactics to ask for parking? has a restraining order been placed on the "cameraman" from being within 100 amos of the Mikveh ?
      Have you once asked your own wife her opinion? Do you even care?
      Don`t you think that this is a major Shalom Bayis concern ?
      Have you even taken out the time to talk to a Hatzalah member or do you merely shoot from the hip and ask questions later ?
      There has not been one mention of anything of substance from the "cameraman" or his entire team.
      They just whine mesira. When the Township rezoned Harmony Park to placate a BMG Board member nobody said mesira it has zero shaychus.
      I would love to hear one serious area that they have compromised on .

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    7. Dude your seriously obsessed with nashim and mikvaos with cameras and videos of ladies whats wrong with you?? Its funny how you have no concerns for the location of the mikva in a very busy intersection? why dont you have concerns abour men having full control and acsess to the mikva nashim? why dont you have concerns when all the men from wesgate shuls walk by the mikva? why dont you have concerns about all the cars driving by every night with a direct view of the nashim that come and go to the mikva? The proposed shul has a parking lot is that not good enough for you? did you speak to the nashim that have no issues going to the mikva? how about the usbands who sent their wives to court to speak publicly in front of a large crowd of men does that not bother you? Your mind is obsessed with videos.. need we say more.

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    8. seems like in Bais Eliyahu they didn't train you in doing your homework.
      They were willing to negotiate in good faith, on many points.
      They provided twice as much parking as required by law.
      They are willing to build any size and type of mechitza that will make everyone happy.
      They are willing to reduce the size of the building considerably.
      They will not be making a Simcha hall.
      Lastly, yes, the ladies also want a shul for themselves and their daughters to daven in. they understand that a mikvah that was planted in the middle of a residential street, is not the most practical, and you can't have that force hundreds to daven in basements. Many choose to get in their car and drive to any of the other wonderful mikvaos in town, if they don't feel like going in front of all the neighborhood children that are playing right in the parking lot.
      so yes they were willing to negotiate, and we're rejected...

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    9. If they were willing to follow the zoning rules it would be a no brainier because they would have legal right to build
      You are blatantly lying to the public

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    10. anon 5pm funny how you keep on changing and singing a different tune as all your previous concerns have been debunked now you resort to the biggest lie of "following zoning rules" why dont you just call yourself Bagdad Bob.

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    11. Nothing has been debunked u have brought nothing of substance to this discussion . The state and federal rules are clear that one has the right to develop one property if the shul is following the rules they cannot be opposed . The only other option is that they are not
      Unless u have some sort of paperwork
      Maybe the cameraman will have some extra time between jobs and can assist u in providing us with some

      Delete
    12. I guess all traffic and safety concerns were addressed, and now we are just fighting to uphold zoning laws....hmmm. I wonder if you checked your own house first, to make sure it is in full compliance with zoning laws and ordinances.

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    13. Anon 8:22, why don't u just come out as straight on paper and say that you're opposing the shul because you're jealous and a kavod fresser? I bet you'd have no trouble double parking, finding tax loopholes etc which are also not totally black and white! If you want to be a tzaddik, it has to be in all areas

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    14. Anon 8:22- thanks for going anonymous and not embarrassing Bais Eliyahu.

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    15. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 4, 2016 at 1:51 PM

      I am still waiting for a cogent reply .
      Of course my house was zoned according to the law! Every house is zoned according to the law !
      i am trying to find out what kind of kavod I am getting doing this

      Delete
  17. I am not from Westgate and have no negios. I have met and like Rabbi Helberg and hope he is able to build a big Shul. But your using the words mesirah is hurting your cause. It is nit mesirah to take part in giving advice to a planning board. If the board votes to approve ,and then somebody sues to overturn it ,that is also not mesirah but it could be oiver on going learkoos. But just giving your opinion to a board is not mesirah

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    1. "just giving your opinion to a board is not mesirah" This is not a case of giving an opinion its a case of paying a lawyer to dig up stuff on a property so you can find something wrong that will make it problematic to build on. Its not even arguing traffic issues and other so called concerns..its bringing up technicalities the board couldn't care or know about.(Look at Igros Moshe Orach Chaim chelek hey 9-11). Going to a zoning board on a non dangerous issue just to stop a shul is Mesira. Show me a letter from a rav that approves of this to hire a lawyer and fight against a shul.

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    2. go ahead claim your Innocentc all over the blog so every one can see and smell your Kosher Chazer Fissel.

      But you are a חוטא ומחטיא את הרבים. anyone who takes part in a איגוד to fight a Bais Medrash a mokom Tora and Yirah, is being mechazek each other and is partaking an equal share in this horrible sin. You may be a Mora a School Teacher a Rebbi A Magid Shiur in Yeshiva You may even be a Ruv in your own right or a school principle it doesn't make a difference you are judged by your actions not by your position that earns you a living. If you have a guilty conscious by labeling yourself as a Moser, that's fine. call yourself a Tzadik A Rov A ram a Menahel But the Chillul Hashem which you רחמנא ליצלן caused is going to meat you soon since missa is not mechaper.

      The igud stands for one thing only לכלות את בית מדרש דקעלםוואדז בלבב שלם What else did the igud do since its inception in 2001. כת חנפנים כת ליצנים כת שקרנים כת מספרי לשון הרע

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    3. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 6, 2016 at 5:59 PM

      Everyone together!
      Aderaba, ten belibeinu
      Shenireh kol echad mal’as chavereinu
      Velo, velo chesronom

      Veshenidaber kol echad es chaveiro
      Bederech hayashar veharatzui lefonecha
      Veal ya’aleh belibeinu, shum sin’ah
      Me’echad al chaveiro cholilah

      Usechazek osonu be’ahavah, be’ahavah ailecha
      Ka’asher goluy veyodua lefanecha

      X2
      Sheyehei hakol nachas ruach
      Nachas ruach ailecha

      Omain kein yehi rotzon

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    4. Christianity also claims to be the religion of peace and brotherly love...

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    5. I wonder if the leaders in other religions also flip flop in their opinions depending on the weather outside?!

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    6. not sure how it works in other religions, but by us there is a concept of "Mesanecha Hashem Esnah"

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    7. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 9, 2016 at 5:09 PM

      Is that what you would say if went to the tziyun of the Noam Elimelech who penned the words of Aderaba?

      Don`t worry just say it anonymously he won`t know who you are

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    8. Are you the guy who holds that you don't have to ask Daas Torah because it's a hashkafa sheilah not a Halacha sheilah? Don't worry, you're anonymous so even if you answer no one will know who you are! You anyways don't have to be worried because it's obvious that everything you do is 100% leshaim shomayim!

      Delete
    9. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 9, 2016 at 7:26 PM

      I am the guy who you love to hate.
      It`s been my pleasure to afford you this opportunity

      Delete
    10. The Noam Elim elect is referring to chaveirim. He definitely doesn't disagree with Dovid Hamelech regarding who we should treat enemies of Hashem.
      תַּכְלִ֣ית שִׂנְאָ֣ה שְׂנֵאתִ֑ים לְ֝אוֹיְבִ֗ים הָ֣יוּ לִֽי׃

      Anyone opposing a shul who deep down doesn't mean 100% lshem shamayim, qualifies as
      הֲלֽוֹא־מְשַׂנְאֶ֖יךָ ---- אֶשְׂנָ֑א וּ֝בִתְקוֹמְמֶ֗יךָ אֶתְקוֹטָֽט

      Delete
    11. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 10, 2016 at 9:50 AM

      You categorize people who want a safe shul & a safe Westgate and who voice tzniyus concerns as Sonei HaShem?
      You might not agree with them but Sonei HaShem?
      If someone is someich on their Rov they are Sonei HaShem?
      Mistama you are from the misfits that hold the same about either Rav Ahron Leib or Rav Shmuel Auerbach Sheyichyu. Because as far as you are concerned it`s either black or white

      Delete
    12. I don't understand! Either rabbi Zimbal is for the kelm woods shul or he's against it. By not coming out openly in support of it, he is showing that he's against it. שתיקה כהודאה. He can't just tell people verbally that he's supportive of other shuls in west gate - that's not enough. In order for him to have people really believe his innocence in this whole disgusting chillul Hashem, he needs to put out a signed letter, publicly stating his position. The question is, will the Maffia bullies let him write such a letter?

      Delete
    13. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 10, 2016 at 4:41 PM

      I don`t know if you are the same Anon or another, but who cares?
      Why do you feel the need to talk ill of a Talmid Chochom and a rov of a shul on a website?
      Does your ego feel enlarged now that you have done so?
      If you are Anon 7:50 AM do I hear a retraction?
      You sound like you could use some better living conditions with more green areas . Chazal say that dira noeh is marchivin daato shel odom . I prescribe a dose of that to you.
      Go Green and look at the good of people even eideleh ones

      Delete
    14. And what are you doing regarding people shechting Rav Halberg? Please do me a favor and don't give garbage that it's not about him, it's about traffic, safety, tznius etc. everyone knows that both Rav Halberg and his brother Rav Pinchas have been harassed, threatened and who knows what over the past 12 years for the terrible crime of daring to open a beautiful Malmö Torah and tefilla that is not run by the Westgate Maffia! How come you're not defending them?

      Delete
    15. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 11, 2016 at 5:42 AM

      So I surmise that you are the same Anon. You , consider yourself worthy enough of sentencing many of the tzibur to gehinom. So I ask you again , what makes you qualified to try be and be mavazeh a Rov online by name?
      Is it your ernsteh koiach hetefilla , your tremndous rischa deOirsaa or your wonderful heart that is open to all yidden (as long as they share your hashkofas HaChaim)?
      I will prescribe another dose of limud hamussar otherwise as you are a baki in Mishlei 14:9 know that Rekev Atzamos Kinah
      . If you want to live a fruitful & long life don`t let your kinah get hold of you because nebach it only causes rekev atzamos . Something that I don`t think anyone wants.
      BTW you have still not offered one solution for improving tzniyus,safety and quality of life in Wetsgate. So as they say if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem .

      Delete
  18. I have no negios. I agree the shul should be built. My question is the following. If somebody wa about to convince the zoning board to approve a 6 story dormitory surrounding your little single family house and you found some technicality on the land that could stop them ,would you say its mesirah and not do it and let them build the huge 6 story formitory for 500 boys around your house ? Im not saying its the same but everybody has their take on what is mesirah and what is acceptable opposition to something that you feel violates your rights to enjoy your house. It just depends on whose side you are on.

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    1. You obviously have a lot of negios since your argument holds no water at all. The case in point here is an existing shul that is there already there are no immediate neighbors near the proposed site plan. Second, Lakewood zoning allows for shuls to be built anywhere. Third many ,mispalelim live nearby they should be the first to complain. Did you have the same concerns about other shuls in westgate or in lakewood. Face it your true intentions were exposed you wont convince anyone.

      Delete
    2. not exactly like "deciding room build a building around your house". This is an upgrade to an EXISTING shul. yes there may be additional traffic, but not that much more than what there already is. this building would be about 300 feet away from there nearest opposing party. most of noise makers are much further than that.
      Westgate people need where to daven, and there is no better spot than this one. There will always be that one neighbor, supported and propped up by the gang, to oppose the shul, because there is no place in westgate that doesn't have neighbors, and there is no limit to the hatred of these unaffected (but infected)individuals.

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    3. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 6, 2016 at 5:56 PM

      If Lakewood zoning allows it than it will pass. Eleh mai they don`t allow it and they are trying to ram it through the court

      Delete
  19. Say what you want. I am not from anywhere near Westgate and i actually believe it is wrong to oppose the shul. It should be built. I just dont like the word mesirah, because its not. If this is mesirah ,then anybody who opposes anything at a board is a Moser,even if the approval will bother you very much like a 6 story dormitory.

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  20. So I guess you know better than R' Moshe Feinstein zt"l about what's mesirah! Great to know that we have a Gadol Hador living in Lakewood!!!!

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    1. Anonymous gedolim we have too many

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  21. All i said was thst if this is mesirah ,then you cant pick and choose, then everything against a zoning board is mesirah. I personally agree that the people fighting the shul ar wrong and its no different than any shul that causes trafgic and noise to the closest neighbors. That doesnt make it mesirah.

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  22. The term "mesirah" is being used about HIRING A LAWYER TO FIND TECHNICALITIES TO STOP THE SHUL BEING BUILT! Now do you understand????????

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  23. Why wont the Rav in WG write a letter promising to put an end to this saga. You cart have it both ways, either let the shul build and control the Mafia or let them daven next door in the empty shul.

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  24. ריב"ש סימן רנ"ג. וגם מה שאמרת אם באו יחידים לעשות להם מדרש לתפלה וקמו אנשים למנוע, אם נתן לשמוע ודאי משתקין אותו בנזיפה, שמעכבין את הרבים מלעשות מצוה, ואין עון גדול מזה, וכבר מנה הרמב"ם ז"ל זה באותן כ"ד דברים שב"ד נזקקין לנדות עובר, ואיתא בירושלמי דמוע"ק, מעכב רבים מלעשות מצוה צרוך נדוי, ואם נותנין טעם לדבריהם מפני ישוב הבית הכנסת שלא תחרב אז הקהל מעיינין בדבר ועושין תקנה לקיים את שתיהן

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  25. עיין רמ"א חושן משפט סימן קס"ב הלכות שותפים בקרקע סעיף ' הג"ה ואם רוצים לבנות להם בית הכנסת אחר, או ז יחידים הבאים לבנות להם בית הכנסת, אין אחרים יכולין למחות בידם

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  26. שו”ת הריב”ש סי’ רנג כתב: “גם מה שאמרת, אם באו יחידים לעשות להם מדרש לתפלה, וקמו אנשים למנוע; אם נתן לשמוע? ודאי משתקין אותו בנזיפה, שמעכבין את הרבים מלעשות מצוה, ואין עון גדול מזה. וכבר מנה הרמב”ם ז”ל זה, באותן כ”ד דברי’ שב”ד נזקקי’ לנדות העובר; ואיתא בירושלמי דמועד קטן (פ”ג ה”א): מעכב רבים מלעשות מצוה, צריך נדוי. ואם נותנים טעם לדבריהם, מפני ישוב הבית הכנסת, שלא תחרב, [=כלומר, הקמת בית הכנסת החדש הוא על חשבון הקיים] אז הקהל מעיינים בדבר, ועושין תקנה לקיים את שתיהן”.. ודבריו הובאו במגן אברהם (סוף סי’ קנד). ובמשנה ברורה סי’ קנ ס”ק ב’.
    בשו”ת אגרות משה (או”ח ח”ב סי’ מו שביאר מדוע נחשב המתנגד להקמת בית כנסת אחר כמונע אחרים מלעשות מצווה, אף כשיש להם היכן להתפלל:
    “אף שיכולים להתפלל בביהכ”נ האחד ויהיה עוד במעלת ברוב עם ומ”מ אסור ונחשב מונע הרבים לעשות מצוה שהוא מחייבי נידוי שמנה הרמב”ם פ”ו מת”ת הי”ד כמפורש בריב”ש סוף סימן רנ”ג. והטעם פשוט משום דיש מעלה בעוד ביהכ”נ לאלו שרחוקים מביהכ”נ הראשון שלפעמים יקשה להם לילך לביהכ”נ וכשיהיה עוד ביהכ”נ שקרוב להם ילכו לביהכ”נ ויתפללו בצבור וישמעו קדיש וקדושה וזה עדיף ממעלת ברוב עם וגם בלא זה לאפושי קדושה עדיף”.

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  27. Does r Gavriel Finkel argue with this Rivush? Ive heard but not confirmed his opinion is u can oppose a shul at the zoning board but never saw it on writing so don't know.

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    1. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 4, 2016 at 1:52 PM

      Nobody is going to Siberia cause of this no shaychus to mesira

      Delete
  28. Is your Torah was only valid for the shtetel where the Poritz would send you to Siberia?
    The Torah which is handed down to us B'Mesora is applicable in the western hemisphere and even in "Ir Hatora" Lakewood and in the Derfel Westgate. Mesira is forbidden anywhere, it is forbidden for you and for me. It is forbidden for all Askonim All Ra Bonim All Menhalim all Magidei Shiur all sons and sons in law of Roshey Yeshiva Mesira is thousands of times more dangerous for Morei Horaha who encourage it . We may not be going to Siberia but there is a place that has a hotter climate awaiting for anyone who had a a hand in preventing A Mokom Kodosh from expanding It is even hotter for anyone who caused a Chilllul Hashem and it is even hotter for those who invite tmimusdige individuals in to their web of Evil. By not puttting down your weapons by not stopping this Dor Hamabul you are igniting this disgrace to Hashem every day. As long as you cant stand up to your actions to your Children,Talmidim to your congregants and co workers. You defiantly wont be able to answer up to the Bais Din shel Maalah. And where do you think they will put you in Siberia???????

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  29. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 5, 2016 at 9:07 PM

    The point is , that its not called mesia bechlal. If my neighbor wants to build an apartment building on his lot and I don`t give him the zoning for it it`s not called mesira. It`s called not having the right to build. Nobody is going to gehinom for not giving a shul the variances they want. Befrat under these circumstances. It`s so weird how you try and play the gehinom card . When I tell Beis Din shel maaleh that they wanted to build a shul next to a womans mikveh and that Hatzalah said that safety wise it`s a disgrace they will say "asisa es shlichuchesah " I am sure that a malach shel rachamim will find a zechus for you as well and say that although you are a bit twisted you meant leshem shomayim somehow

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  30. You're the twisted one here! It says clearly in seforim that it's ossur to oppose the building of a mokom Torah. The plans etc were shown to a Bais din who went through all the issues one by one and either said they're a non issue or asked the shul to make modifications. The opposers still weren't happy. The shul paid thousands for traffic studies etc and came out its a non issue. The opposers still weren't happy. I don't know where you come from, but if you look at most towns and cities with kosher mikvaos for women, you'll find that most of the said mikvaos are in relatively public places, some even attached to a shul. I'm pretty confident that the women in those places still use the Mikva! By the way, how come you weren't so worried when the shul on kingsfield opened up in the same type of close proximity to the Mikva? Or was that because Barry freundel hadn't been caught yet?! Why are you so obsessed with the Mikva? How come it doesn't bother you that a MALE (that means man) is in charge of the Mikva and has access to everything? Doesn't your wife feel uncomfortable about that? Anyone who doesn't feel comfortable with the Mikva for whatever reason, (male overseer, proximity to shul, children playing right there, etc) can go to one of the other mikvaos in town. As for your worry that the cameraman would stand there filming women going to Mikva, all I can say to that is, I'm sorry you judge everyone else by your own standards!!!!

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  31. How dear you say that your issue is Mikve and safety

    you know as well as everyone else your driving force is your מדות רעות this is the issue of קין והבל. this is the foolishness of ירעבם בן נבט who wasn't satisfied with his shul with his תורה and even though he would be נהנה מזיו השכינה it wasn't worth for him when he found out that דוד המלך was going to be בראש . In today's day and age we see daily with the Palestinians ימ"ש who for the last 25 years every US president offered them more than all our imagination and Arafat and Mazaan turned it down because they Wont "behave" until they get all of Yerusholayim.

    You guys are no diferent you cant live in piece when you see another budding Kehila in your back yard. You can be in the "main" Shul you can have Parnassa some of you have redpected Shtelles talmidim and followers. but just like המן said כל זה איננו שוה לי בראותי את מרדכי היהודי.....

    All your many Minyonim in Ropshitz, all the control you have on the multiple other minyonim in Westgate. All the membership "dues" that you collect from the members and from the non associate members, (FYI I pay like a member) Your privileges in getting an early appointment for your ב"ב. The pleasure you derive from Tumuling with the upper ups in power.
    Even though you are part of the click and you and your sons have where to daven and learn comfortably.

    You are proclaiming loudly :

    כל זה איננו שוה לי בראותי כבוד שמים מתרבה בבית המדרש דקעלם וואדז


    Lets finally be honest as קין was honest and hashem accepted him בתשובה שלמה

    The Rivash said that in such a situation where there is any issues like Safety or Mikve Noshim the propper thing to do is to work things out and eliminate the issues "אז הקהל מעיינים בדבר, ועושין תקנה לקיים את שתיהן”

    These יראים ושלמים along with the טובי העיר spend many months in delibaration they paid hundred of thousands of dollars to satisfy any concern that was brought up in the Din Torah with Rabbi H Shachar and Rabbi Shulgasser and then Horav Forcheimer. Both sides made agreed to a תקנה that was a solution for the Safety issue and the Tznius Issue.

    But as you are shouting again and again וכל זה איננו שוה לי בראותי את הקרן התורה של זולתי פורח and אני ואפסי עוד.

    Please take a moment and make an honest חשבון הנפש before you will tell the סיטרא אחרא with all seriousness עשיתי שליחותך

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  32. The Rabbonim who claim to support the opposition to a shul should say so publicly why are they hiding if they are scared of der eibishter?

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    1. R shea Krupni perhaps can explain his position allthough im not sure what his involvement is in this issue he is not a rav in WG nor was he approached or asked to weigh in on this

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  33. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 6, 2016 at 12:19 PM

    Zhvill took Mir Yerushalayim to a din torah and won , forcing the Mir to alter their construction plans to accommodate Zhvill . are all of the Zhvliier now condemned to Sheol Tachtis per the Rivash ?
    If a shul wants to build a skyscraper are the neighbors forced to agree?
    It`s a standard ingreshe/chasidishe method to try and use Torah and Gehinom into scaring good simple Jews.
    The Rivash has no place here .
    The issue is if they have a right to build bechlal.
    Because you disagree with someone you call him Yeravam ben Nevat ? Is that the way any Jew talks?
    Did Rav Nosson Tzvi call the Zhviller rebbe that when he needed to odify his building plans!? Of course not ! Maybe you have a different chinuch based on hate on intimidation . I truly feel sorry for you and anyone who needs to be involved with you .

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    1. Did Zvhill also ask Rav Nosson Tzvi to limit the amount of shiurim he gives or limit the amount of talmidim he can take or limit the minyanim in yeshiva? Just asking

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  34. And how do you defend your actions mr tzaddik gomur??? You change your story every time another "issue" is debunked. You're so sick and twisted that you can't and won't accept that a Bais din went through all the issues and ironed them out but the kavod fressers and bullies keep coming up with new issues because THEY JUST CAN'T FARGIN A SHUL THATS NOT UNDER THEIR POWER!! They're worried that they won't be able to CONTROL THE GANTZE WESTGATE!!

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  35. Alumni Beis EliyahuMarch 6, 2016 at 5:54 PM

    Nothing was debunked . U have not brought one shred of proof that you were correct. If they are within their rights there cannot be any oppostion eleh mai they are not within their rights and they are need the heskem from the oilam . If the oilam does not want to grant them the right they have committed nothing worse than Chasidei Zhvill whom you have thrown into gehinom .
    Nobody cares what happens inside the shul .
    the question is the quality of life that it will either hinder or enhance depending on whom you ask.
    Just as the Chasidei Zhvill did and since they are chasidim you probably don`t like them .
    I have not changed one iota I have merely tried to underscore the oppositions objections.
    If your neighbor would try and build a shopping mall with a minyan factory in their basement yo have every right to object in court .
    I feel bad that you have such a shallow regard for half of your neighbors.
    Perhaps you should sing Aderaba on the way to shul for a few weeks that would perhaps provide you with the ability to do so .

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  36. I heard that people are saying that they came to the hearing because if rabbi Zimbal didn't give out the letter that he promised and didn't speak in public about not opposing then it means it's ok to go. "If rabbi Z is not openly opposing it then he's inclination get that we should go and oppose!"

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    1. Anyone who considers Rabbi Zimbal as their rav, knows that he would not have encouraged them to oppose the shul at the hearing, as he has told many people that he is very much fo it, and that Westate nreds many more shuls. He cannot come out in public against the opposition, because he is the biggest victim of this zera Amalek gang. They have been controlling him and "guiding" since day one, and he cannot stand up to them. It is sad that such an adom choshuv, who would be so well respected and cherished by any other kehillah, ended up under the heels of these gangsters.

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  37. Why are the rabbonim who claim they're not opposing the shul not speaking out publicly, denouncing the Maffia and bullies that are raitzing uhn everyone to oppose this mokom Torah?

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  38. Such rishus going on trying to stop a shul and the silence of Rabbonim is deafening here. For the bais horaah the askanim and Rabbonim are speaking out and meeting but in Westgate you have a mafia of a few yechidim that have a long deep rooted hatred to an existing shul. No compromise is good enough they simply want to stop a shul. outsiders are shocked by the anti semitic tone and nature coming from unzereh. Hiring a lawyer who represented Jackson residents in opposing a lakewood Jewish school.

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  39. Please don't forget the tzaddikim gemurim like our alumni Bais eliyohu friend, who feel it's their tafkid in life to spew as much hate as possible to fan the flames of sinah, to ensure that they reach all the places they didn't get to in the first place!

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  40. Take a l`chaim and sing along!
    I know you can do it!
    ...Veshenidaber kol echad es chaveiro
    Bederech hayashar veharatzui lefonecha
    Veal ya’aleh belibeinu, shum sin’ah
    Me’echad al chaveiro cholilah

    Nochamol !
    Veshenidaber kol echad es chaveiro
    Bederech hayashar veharatzui lefonecha
    Veal ya’aleh belibeinu, shum sin’ah
    Me’echad al chaveiro cholilah

    Shkoiyach very nice how do you feel now?

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  41. As a former Wesgate resident from back in the day when we barely had minyan for Yom Tov, before we had a rov. Since that we were isolated far away from the center of Lakewood "the Yeshiva". We decided to live together B"achdus one community with one Rov. We all agreed to it, and we asked a shaila if this agreement should be accepted by our future neighbors. We were told and encouragedthat we can stay together as the development increases.

    Before we got a chance to make plans for our shul building and a community leader/Rov. other Shuls opened up on their own not part of the core of the Westage community which ruined the piece in the area.

    With election under the auspities of local Rabonuim we voted in a Rov. the Rov did a tremendous job in uniting the whole Westgate with all the small minyonim under one umbrella organization K"K BAIS MEDRSAS DWESTGATE. But it was too late the machlokes started before hand already. This scenario affected the plans and construction of the mikva noshim and it delayed the bulding of the Mikva.
    The situation got so bad that at least three of the shuls in Westgate itself diverted from the kehila.
    I dont live in Westgate anymore and where I live now there is no need for politicas and fight every body lives and lets to live. Please don't make any more tummuls and let things fall into place peacefully, the way it was in the early years if anyone had any issues we would sit-down and talk b'achdus. this whole forum is counterproductive to the spirit of the basis that the Westgate comunitywas built on.

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    Replies
    1. "We all agreed to one rav..and We asked a shaila". That is not the truth. The mafia that tried to control Westgate was having too much in fighting and needed a rav. The majority of Westgate did not want a single rav developement, as they understood that Westgate was too big for that. As for getting the other shuls under BM of Westgate's wing, do we need to bring up how well it worked out with Rabbi Walkin's shul?
      Most of Westgate does not want to be controlled, or be under any one vaad, committee, board etc. They want to live and let live. They want to daven where they choose, and pick a rav that they feel comfortable with, and don't need any mafia to exist.

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    2. Added to which, it's interesting that the Rov who was "voted in" appears to be simply a puppet in the hands of the puppeteers. Which other Rov do you know who is unable to voice his own opinion or use his influence over the mobsters and gangsters in his shul?

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    3. Why has there not been any elections for vaad members in over 10 years? Why did they never show the results of the last rigged elections? Why do members who moved out still remain in charge?

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    4. Why would a whole neighborhood as big as Westgate choose to be under the rule of a few domineering bullies who stop at nothing to get there own way? Of course it goes without saying that's it's all being done "l'shaim shomayim"!!

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